What Happens When You Go Lich?

[Jeremy]

(his ECL being effectively 2 higher).

I think you under-rate some of the lich's abilities when in the hands of a PC as opposed to when facing the monster. CR +2 is about right. It's only going to bump the difficulty up a little in the one or two combats you are pitted against the guy.

However, his ECL is most certainly not +2. The immunities to two schools of magic (enchantment and necromancy) is already worth more than the duergar get and they are +2.

As I said earlier when I listed off each benefit and each penalty with Soldarin's scale number attached, I think it's probably ECL +5. Look again at each of the benefits and compare it to say the difference between playing an elf and playing a genasi or githzerai.

Me if I could have githzerai or lich at ECL +2, I'd take lich 100 times to 1 because of all the tremendous defensive capabilities. The shere number of immunities is tremendous to both magical and physical opponents.

And the ability just to have a box you can hide or protect that will allow you to respawn cannot be dismissed because you may make an enemy who will try to find it. You are already ahead of the game. Normally they could just kill you. Now they can't just kill you, you're immune to death effects. You're dead. They have to track down your phylactery, not easy if your trusty meat-shield fighter is one who actually has it. Especially if you are crafty and have a decoy hidden well far away from you. Even after they take it out, they still have to blast and beat your d12 high immunity body into oblivion.

This isn't invincibility, but it sure beats being mortal with a stick.

 

[LordAO]

How about this? Since it adjusts his ecl, just apply it to him like as if he were drow or aasimar (not actually changing his level, but the exp needed to go up in level). The next level he gets will be pretty far away, because now it takes more exp for him to go up in level.
And as far as the advantages vs disadvantages of a Lich, you forgot a few obvious ones. Being immune to most necromantic effects is as bad as it is good, since many are beneficial, and also healing spells now harm the user. And being a rotting husk has got to negatively impact the character in social situations.
As far as the special abilities in the Forgotten Realms, using a Ghost like template should work pretty well. Also, I would allow a lich to learn an additional power from that list (or perhaps a new power, with DM's permission) as a feat. I think this represents that Liches are supposed to become more powerful with time. This is something my group also does with any template, since having unique abilities to your race/template makes it much more fun and interesting, while still being well balanced because they have to give up feats to get them. What do you think?

 

[Caliber]

I will admit it seems unbalancing. But I stand by saying no ECL for such a creature. 120,000 gold! Thats a huge chunk of change, especially for a 12th level character. And either way, the creation of the phylactery will take 120 days.

Look at the spell Hide Life. In many ways it mimics the defensive lich powers. It costs 5000 XP (I think) and carries none of the negative connotations of being a lich.

Being a lich costs a LOT of money, and a pretty large amount of XP as well. It provides extensive benefits, but also provides the PC in question with some weaknesses as well.

I rarely advocate using RP disadvantages to balance game bonuses, but in this case, the RP disadvantage is extreme. Any number of characters will instantly become unfriendly upon becoming a lich, whether good or not. Try convincing that Hunter of the Undead that, no, you're a good lich!

Its too bad WizardDru isn't reading this thread. From his storyhour, I think he had a lich in his party for a short amount of time. I wonder how he handled it?

As a side note, would you make a character afflicted with lycanthropy take a HUGE XP penalty (by making them an ECL +2 or more) character? Once I contemplated doing this, but I have since decided against it.

Templates that are gained in game (which basicly means any template a character is not born with) should not affect ECL, unless the rules explicitly state that they do.

These are only my opinions, however. As always, YMMV.

 

[Valicor]

I think one of the major factors that will be an issue in for the in -game part of this is, the amount of time it would take to becoem a lich. 120 day's a belive. I am more then certain our party wil not wait this long.

for the following reasons:

The Celestial Cleric/Fighter has a magical curse on him, which will kill him in less then a year.

We are currently trying to oppose a man known as the Destroyer from blowing up the world within the next short while.

My character has plans of revenge dominating over all evil (His alittle warped right now), and see's the destroyer as a powerful form challeneg to surpass.

The Revenant (Forgotten Realms Undead) is back to kill the destroyer for killing him. (Ya we have an undead in the party already, and apprently the paladin nore the cleric is able to tell, why I don't know)

Further More the reason I am concerned with people treating it as a powerful item is because of all the benifits. No combination of items in the DMg will give you all that for 120k. And it would seriously create inbalance in the challenge verses the CR monsters, The DM already has a hard time challenging us, because we are strong. I am not out to trash his character or mess with what he wants to do, I just want it to be fair.

The necromancer elf currently has that spell on that allows you to channel your life force into one part of your body. What's it called again?

Some one mentioned in this thread or the poll that you don't take negative's for getting hit with the vampire template or lycanthrop template. Personally as a PC I would have a problem with becoming either because it alters my character design and concept, it forces in most cases an alignment change, whihc in alot of games Dm's remove evil characters. (Yes I am aware not all DM's do this, but many do). Secodnly as a DM I would be out to remove these afflictions as soon as possible to keep the character within balance of each other, levels have to be earned, not given out or bought.

 

[Caliber]

An afflicted Lycanthrope gains very little power. Obviously, some forms are better than others, but when the character involuntarily changes into his animal form when damaged, most quickly get the idea that being infected with lycanthropy is a bad thing.

Same thing with vampires. EVERYONE and their sister seems to know how to kill a vampire. And even if they don't, adventurers surely do.

Yes in both cases I would likely try to get them cured, unless that was part of my character concept. Unlike lichdom, yes you rarely contract these on purpose.

But the priciples are still the same. You yourself said the party would be unwilling to wait for 120 days. Remember that these days have to be completely uninterrupted (I think.) No spacing them out or anything.

I would say don't worry about it. The worst that can happen is that the character somehow becomes a lich and is grossly unbalanced. Then the DM, because of complaining from the other players, throws an Epic level Hunter of the Undead who makes quick work of this "good" lich.

And by the way, Hide Life is the spell I was refering to. (The one that gives lots of lich-like defensive abilities.)

 

[Valicor]

I would say don't worry about it. The worst that can happen is that the character somehow becomes a lich and is grossly unbalanced. Then the DM, because of complaining from the other players, throws an Epic level Hunter of the Undead who makes quick work of this "good" lich.

And by the way, Hide Life is the spell I was refering to. (The one that gives lots of lich-like defensive abilities.)

I could more then likely take him out myself, I always make contigency plans built into my character, incase a player goes rogue. (No pun's intended)

Well I am on the subject of the Hide Life Spell though, I don't wanna move to far from the original discussion though. But a quick question. Can a wizard use a scroll of a higher level spell then he can cast, to activate the power on it?

 

[Numion]

The Revenant (Forgotten Realms Undead) is back to kill the destroyer for killing him. (Ya we have an undead in the party already, and apprently the paladin nore the cleric is able to tell, why I don't know)

Because I don't know your game, I'm talking out of my arse here, but doesn't this quote trip anyone else's mental DM alarm? It sure does mine

 

[Artoomis]

As I noted in the poll thread, probably the best way to handle this for a PC (Lich is designed for NPCs only) is to:

Design a 5 (or 6) level prestige class - "Immortal Wizard" or some such thing - and require that one cannot take a level in any other class until the lich class is complete.

Simplicity itself. Each level he gains more power, until achieving undead immortality at the last level.

edit:

Immortal

Note: this class needs to be modified for the FR rules. It was created based upon the MM only, without the requirement for evil alignment. Obviously, one of the requirements must include a good reason for becoming an immortal.

Sorcerer, wizard, or cleric 11th level.
Craft Wondrous Item Feat.

Before getting 5th level, must create a magic phylactery in which to store his life force. Unless the phylactery is located and destroyed, the lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

Each immortal must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

Skills: 2 + Int Bonus per level
No increase is spell casting ability.
BAB is as wizard.
Saves are as wizard.

Lvl 1 +5 Nat AC bonus. Fear Aura (DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + lich’s Charisma modifier ) HD change to D12
Lvl 2 Paralyzing Touch (DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + lich’s Charisma modifier)
Lvl 3 Immune to all Cold and Electricity attacks and spells
Lvl 4 Immune to all mind affecting attacks and spells as well as necromancy spells
Lvl 5 Immortality (Become Undead: +8 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks, immune to all mind affecting attacks and spells as well as necromancy spells, spells that cause fort saves, spells that polymorph, spells that paralyze or stun; immune to all poison, sleep, disease, death effects, ability drain, energy drain; immune to all critical hits, sneak attack, ability damage, and subdual damage; +2 Unnamed bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

Well, something like that, anyway.

 

[Jeremy]

Forgetting for a moment that the total sum of a 12th level character's gear is supposed to be somewhere around 88 k, let's assume a 12th level character is moderately equipped with gear and has 120 k extra assembled.

Does he buy a:

a) Commander's Ring (+2 resistance bonus to saves; +2 deflection bonus to AC; feather fall, knock, wall of force, and daylight 3/day; and knowledge of other ring bearers within 100') $120 k

b) Diviner's Staff (identify, locate object, locate creature, analyze dweomer, and vision by charges [50 max]; and +1 competence bonus to knowledge checks) $137 k

c) Eye of Winking (immune to detect thoughts and mindreading; reflect charms and compulsions; immune to all spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects for 1 round once every 10 days) $120 k

d) Ring of Limited Invulnerability (HD all become d12; Natural Armor +5; 1d8+5 negative energy touch attack at will; Fear Aura 60' radius (Will DC 24); Paralyzing Touch (Fortitude save DC 24 at will, duration permanent); DR 15/+1; Immune to all Cold and Electricity attacks and spells; Immune to all mind affecting attacks and spells as well as necromancy spells, spells that cause fort saves, spells that polymorph, spells that paralyze or stun; Immune to all poison, sleep, disease, death effects, ability drain, energy drain; Immune to all critical hits, sneak attack, ability damage, and subdual damage; +2 Unnamed bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma; and +48 to skills; if destroyed in some manner the character is not immune to, the character reappears 1d10 days later unless the ring is destroyed; the ring does not have to be worn for any of these effects to continue) $120 k

Sign me up for that bargain.

Here's a question, please give me an answer to this. Does becoming a lich affect the usage of the way the term "level" applies to you?

i.e. does it make you more powerful than the average example of a character your level?

does it make you capable of overcoming challenges that might normally require a higher level character?

does it give you abilities which when added to your current abilities might make you be considered as slightly more formidable than other members of your party of equal level?

If the answers to any of these are yes, then the lich needs to have his level changed just so the DM knows the correct average party level in relation to CR's and XP awards. If the group still wishes to call him a 12th level character, that is fine, as long as the DM understands that effectively as far as the D&D rules are considered for play balance at particular levels he is actually closer to an X level character, and as long as the players understand when they reach X level, they will have similar powers as well.

For the record, as I've stated before, I believe Artoomis's suggestion to be the most reasonable one that both allows the transformation and all these powers, but also keeps the character in line with both the powers of the party and the powers of similarly leveled characters from the stand point of how the game (XP and CR) considers the PC.

Edit: Just flipping through my DMG for other price comparisons, how's this? Immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits? 36 k That + DR 5/+1 (not 15/+1)? 81k That + Cold Resistance 10 (not cold immunity)? 144 k We're already well over price and haven't even gotten to 1/10th of the abilities. Lichdom cannot be treated as an item fairly. It simply cannot. I must be a class or a level equivalent.

 

[Alejandro]

Hey Valicor, as you've already said yourself, you're not the DM but time itself may be the limiting factor.

If the other PCs are worried about upsetting the balance, you've a number of suggestions on this thread. If the DM is looking for options, point him to this thread.

But you're protesting an awful lot when this decision only affects you indirectly. I hope you'll voice your reservations to your DM discretely, rather than argue with him in-game about the actions taken by another player. T'would be rude, IMO.