D&D 5E What I Don't Like About Subclasses, and Potential Solutions.

Aldarc

Legend
For a lot of people 5e is now formative. A decade in a hobby is a very long time, especially when the average age has dropped considerably. In short, its a sacred cow to the demographic of 5e players.
I've seen my fair share of designers who came out of "5e only" who have been reinventing different kinds of familiar wheels when it comes to how classes are structured. So it may be safer to say that it's not so much a sacred cow as it is the presumed starting point or norm.
 

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Reynard

Legend
Supporter
wouldn't talent trees be more convoluted than subclasses?
No. Subclasses come with a bunch of stuff that may or may not be what you want. A talent tree for, say, an animal companion is both straight forward and allows customization without making that pet your whole self.
 




deadman1204

Explorer
wouldn't talent trees be more convoluted than subclasses?
Yes, but that is the goal. You make a single decision for your 5e character lvl 1-20. What subclass then done.. 5e goes out of its way to remove all options. We talk about "less complexity" but fail to realize that "less complexity" is dull and boring. A blank piece of paper is less complex than a novel, but I like the novel more.
Why do you think most people never play a single class all the way up but multiclass instead? Its more powerful and more interesting. If you want a character more complex than a single decision point, you must multiclass.
 

Scribe

Legend
What do these RPGs have in place of subclass customization?

Nothing, they are simplified in many aspects, or randomized, or different.

They are not however 5e, which is the point I failed to make I guess.

Subclasses are not a sacred cow to D&D, or even D&D adjacent games. They seemingly could be, to 5e players/designers however.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
No. Subclasses come with a bunch of stuff that may or may not be what you want. A talent tree for, say, an animal companion is both straight forward and allows customization without making that pet your whole self.
that has nothing to do with how convoluted they are, that's granularity.
Yes, but that is the goal. You make a single decision for your 5e character lvl 1-20. What subclass then done.. 5e goes out of its way to remove all options. We talk about "less complexity" but fail to realize that "less complexity" is dull and boring. A blank piece of paper is less complex than a novel, but I like the novel more.
Why do you think most people never play a single class all the way up but multiclass instead? Its more powerful and more interesting. If you want a character more complex than a single decision point, you must multiclass.
convolution is not the same thing as complexity,
 

Reynard

Legend
Supporter
that has nothing to do with how convoluted they are, that's granularity.

convolution is not the same thing as complexity,
You need to define what you mean by convoluted then, because when I used it for subclasses I meant that they were a mess of stacked options that were a pain to work with and demanded more than they gave.
 

deadman1204

Explorer
convolution is not the same thing as complexity,
This is a potatoe potAto thing. People who think simple design is boring say complexity. Those who want simplicity use negative words like convoluted instead.
One is not wrong, its the persons preference. In the case of subclasses, 5e has gone far into the boringly dull and lack of useful complexity. I would agree that parts can be needlessly complex or "convoluted", but thats when the rules are cumbersum without adding meaningful choices. See all the silly rules for owning keeps. Its like the tried to legislate fun and of course totally failed.
 

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