D&D 5E What (if anything) do you find "wrong" with 5E?

[Snarf Zagyg]

nobody has evidence... except MAYBE wotc... so if you are asking on a thread on enworld for better get used to being disappointed.

Well, I live for disappointment!

...but, we have a number of indicators of the popularity of 5e. We have a number of indicators of the demographics of 5e. We have a number of indicators about the sales of 5e.

There's not perfect information- but there's a lot of good information. I will note that no one seems very interested in providing any information that would support their belief that so many people are unhappy with the game and that new players are leaving in large quantities (which is ... certain an assertion).

Personally, I have been assuming for some time that this is another bubble, similar to the one in the early 80s. To date, I have been wrong.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Like the other thread states, the overall change of attitude of the D&D community and the resources they provide mostly covered WOTC's butt on 5e.

However this doesn't make it not a flaw of 5e.

That's ... not at all what I was getting at.

Usually, a market leader will end up losing out not because its makes it customers unhappy (although that can happen!) but because it just keeps giving them ... what they want.

Eventually, some new market entrant will realize ... Hey, maybe I should provide something that people don't even realize they want yet! And in so doing, will succeed.

5e works because it plays it safe. But that same strength could be a weakness in the future.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

...but, we have a number of indicators of the popularity of 5e. We have a number of indicators of the demographics of 5e. We have a number of indicators about the sales of 5e.

nope... we show it sells well, but so to did every other version of D&D.... and every version has haters and house rules... nobody can prove what part people like and what part people don't.

There's not perfect information- but there's a lot of good information.

no there isn't

 

[Malmuria]

There is no singular thing that is "modern" design or "good" design. Contemporary games occupy an entire range from things like Lancer to other games like Lasers and Feelings. Any of the newest rules-lite games in the OSR still take the basic premise of play and of what makes a character from OD&D. So yes, while there are some things that are vestigial in dnd (ability scores vs ability modifiers, etc), it is not very useful to make a dividing line between "popular and traditional" on the one hand and "modern" on the other. In other words, wotc could take the game in quite different directions and all these directions would still be "modern."

 

[Garthanos]

in 4e you start with 0 in non prof skills defenses and attacks and get + 1/2 level.

You do not add that 2 to non proficient skills in 5e either.but that is confusing the issue. Advancement id the important part because the targets are not identical remember in 4e everyone gets a 1/2 per level advancement on everything 5e did remove that completely and they also removed the dc advancement that correlated with it.

So lets say a character in 4e trained the skill they get an immediate +5 and can take +3 due to skill focus. This correlates well to the advancement of 4 you get from 2 to 6 in 5e. 4e does not do as subtle of advancement from skill training its bigger blocks. But advancing 8 (discarding the removed half per level) is exactly double. Yes in 4e you may have to spend resources to advance that skill. 4e does have other sources of skill buffing like races and backgrounds and the like which are not as reliably accessible as the 5e feat.

There was some tweaking in there to allow attacks and skills to use the same core targets/values and its a change I approve of as it allows more flexible use of skills in combat.

The entire translation is not hyper exact.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

nope... we show it sells well, but so to did every other version of D&D.... and every version has haters and house rules... nobody can prove what part people like and what part people don't.

I mean ... that's balderdash. Claptrap. Hogwash. Bosh. Codswallop.

5e's popularity is so far beyond prior versions that this is the equivalent of saying, "Sure, I know we're renting the apartment, but I really wanted to remodel the whole thing!"

no there isn't

Counterpoint- yes, there is.

Or, to avoid the ouroboros of "I know you are, but what am I?" argument that you seem to want to indulge in ... there are numerous sources, from icv2 (posted here) to Hasbro quarterlies to Amazon rankings to popularity over time (as referenced in a number of tracking sources) that can be used.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

There is no singular thing that is "modern" design or "good" design. Contemporary games occupy an entire range from things like Lancer to other games like Lasers and Feelings. Any of the newest rules-lite games in the OSR still take the basic premise of play and of what makes a character from OD&D. So yes, while there are some things that are vestigial in dnd (ability scores vs ability modifiers, etc), it is not very useful to make a dividing line between "popular and traditional" on the one hand and "modern" on the other. In other words, wotc could take the game in quite different directions and all these directions would still be "modern."

Completely agree; usually, "modern" means "I would like a specific style of game from a little over a decade ago."

Which, if that's modern ... makes this post-modern?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You do not add that 2 to non proficient skills in 5e either.but that is confusing the issue. Advancement the important part because the targets are not identical remember in 4e everyone gets a 1/2 per level advancement on everything 5e did remove that completely and they also removed the dc advancement that correlated with it.

yes and doing so makes a huge change one much more in line with 3e then 4e (but even 3e had SOME advancement) if you see my thread on saves this makes you WORSE at average things as you level.

So lets say a character in 4e trained the skill they get an immediate +5 and can take +3 due to skill focus. This correlates well to the advancement of 4 you get from 2 to 6. 4e does not do as subtle of advancement from skill training its bigger blocks. But advancing 8 (discarding the removed half per level) is exactly double. Yes in 4e you may have to spend resources to advance that skill.

again not even close to the same

There was some tweaking in there to allow attacks and skills to use the same core targets/values and its a change I approve of as it allows more flexible use of skills in combat.

The entire translation is not hyper exact.

it is bearly even able to bee seen blurry in the distance... take attacks vs AC... your prof will go from +2 through +6 but in 4e will go from 0-+10 (capping at 20 for fairness) that change is pretty big

 

[Garthanos]

Which, if that's modern ... makes this post-modern?

retro ...

 

[Minigiant]

That's ... not at all what I was getting at.

Usually, a market leader will end up losing out not because its makes it customers unhappy (although that can happen!) but because it just keeps giving them ... what they want.

Eventually, some new market entrant will realize ... Hey, maybe I should provide something that people don't even realize they want yet! And in so doing, will succeed.

5e works because it plays it safe. But that same strength could be a weakness in the future.

My whole point is that there are new technology and media that allows the community to provide wanted product for free or near free.

Community wants a Gish class.
YouTuber provides homebrew fish class to 100k followers for free as an enticement to watch his or her video and get more monetization of their videos


Fifteen years ago this doesn't happen. Fifteen years ago, some company publishes a product that eats at the official edition. The change in community, tech, and media covers 5e's flaws as it creates incentives to provide content that 5e fails to provide for free instead as paid for competition.

Same way big video game companies don't attempt games outside of the top 5 genre as there is in fracture for indie devs to publish free and near free niche games via backer sites.