What, If Anything, Might be Wrong with the Warblade?

[hong]

Measured how?

Measured the same way that it's always measured in these who-would-win arguments, I guess.

I think the Warblade made the entire party stronger when I playtested it in group, most out of the three, but the Crusader did the one-man-army bit better--the damn girl wouldn't die!

That might be more a function of school choices though. White Raven is a school for crusaders as well, so I could see the crusader achieving the same party-buff thing as the warblade.

(I put a Crusader in an arcade-game-like endurance mode battle against a never-ending stream of CR-appropriate challenges (enemies with CRs going from her level -2 to her level) and she killed them all non-stop with no breaks)

Stone Power, I guess?

and the Swordsage's offensive capabilities and flexibility made her singularly more "powerful" as well if power is measured by doing a few things with really kick-ass results.

That's pretty much my impression as well. Okay, not in comparative terms since noone else in my group has played a Bo9S character, but the SS that I've been playing certainly doesn't seem to lack for flashy stunt powers.

 

[Aluvial]

I have playtest experience where the Warblade broke the game (with problem manoeuvres allowed), and then simply kicked ass when the problem manoeuvres were removed. The ways it kicks ass (i.e. the best builds I could tinker) generally tend to help everyone, so the party will be substantially stronger with the Warblade than a Fighter, or most other classes, unless they are missing a role like healing--obviously a Warblade can't replace your group's healer if you have none, but it helps more than a second Cleric. The good news is that this means that there will be generally less showboating than usual when one of the characters is a bit overpowered.

The tricky thing about the Warblade is that with good feat selection, it is nearly a viable class without any of its manoeuvres or stances (at least in playtest, when I did this, it was weaker than most other classes, but still a noticable contributor and reasonably similar to a Fighter). But it's so much more fun to play with the manoeuvres and stances. No matter what you do, I suggest removing problem manoeuvres first and foremost. After that, it is a matter of taste--one idea is to rebalance your game around the initiators, another to nerf them. Interestingly, Warblades with all their abilities except the broken ones hold up fairly well against gestalt classes (they clearly are not the best, but they are much better than some--my theory is to think of them as a gestalt of the slightly-underpowered Warblade with no manouevres and then the manoeuvres. Both of the two sides of that gestalt are a bit weaker than usual for making a gestalt, but they synergise superbly.)

EDIT TO ADD: hong is right that you can make a full attack while recovering manoeuvres, or at least I playtested them that way.

What are the "problem" maneuvers that you saw?

Aluvial

 

[Rystil Arden]

Measured the same way that it's always measured in these who-would-win arguments, I guess.



That might be more a function of school choices though. White Raven is a school for crusaders as well, so I could see the crusader achieving the same party-buff thing as the warblade.



Stone Power, I guess?



That's pretty much my impression as well. Okay, not in comparative terms since noone else in my group has played a Bo9S character, but the SS that I've been playing certainly doesn't seem to lack for flashy stunt powers.

I tried a White Raven Crusader--the White Raven Warblade was better at it because she had the tactical manoeuvres she needed when they came up--nothing worse than finally getting a Charge manoeuvre after the charge is over and you don't need it any more or getting a flanking manoeuvre when you aren't flanking (plus vice versa, not getting them when you do need it). White Raven has enough provisos on its use that the randomness was a bigger issue than usual for the Crusader, enough that the Warblade was noticably better at it.

Stone Power was key. Also cycling through manoeuvres to get to real healing was helpful too. The key is to have the highest AC possible also--not being hit in the first place most of the time helps make healing what does hit you easier.

Yeah, the Swordsage flashy stunt powers were definitely the most consistently impressive/flashy of the three (not counting Warmaster's Charge, which I removed--it's just as impressive, though in part due to being overpowered).

 

[hong]

What are the "problem" maneuvers that you saw?

Aluvial

The ones I've seen mentioned are White Raven Tactics (give an ally a free turn -- bad if two people have this, and they use it each other, or if you use it on yourself) and Warmaster's Charge (everyone gets to charge an opponent, with a massive bonus, and you'll almost certainly stun the target even if it isn't dropped).

 

[jasin]

To be precise, it says "you can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round...".

FWIW, the first time I read this, I read it as "a (single, standard action) melee attack".

As for warblades vs. crusaders vs. swordsages, I've played all three, albeit very shortly. My limited experience was that they were all more or less fine, but my pick as the strongest of the three would be crusader. My first 3E game had a paladin with Con 8, and ever since my experience has been that the character percieved as most powerful in actual play isn't the one who can dish out the most damage, or the one who would win in a PC-vs-PC duels, but the one who never seems to get killed (while still being reasonably useful, just cowering in safety doesn't count). And for that, my money's on the crusader. Delayed damage + temp hp + self-healing while attacking + Cha to Will FTW!

As a semi-related note, I would also say the crusader is the most difficult to play, while the swordsage is the most difficult to design well, while the warblade is the easiest for both.

 

[brehobit]

I've only seen the swordsage and crusader in actual play. My resident power gamer hasn't pulled a warblade out yet.

That said a warblade would appear to be significantly more powerful than any core warrior type from levels 3-5. Once you get the ability to do +2d6 damage and ignore DR at least once/fight you are doing pretty well at these levels.

At level 6, you end up starting to pay for using strikes by turning away your full attack.


My answer:
A warblade will blow away fighter types. And a Barb 2/Warblade X will be better than any barb (once you take extra rage). The warblade _is_ fun so I personally would allow it, but I'd likely at least remove White Raven Tactics and maybe a few other options.

mark

 

[Beckett]

There's a warblade in my Savage Tide game. Gestalted with ranger and cleric levels, now up to... 9th level? I think he leveled last time. A dwarf headed toward the Stone Dragon prestige.

He's tough. Well, of course, he's a dwarf, and he uses Stone Power and Stone Bones to good use, along with vital recovery. Offensively... Early on, he wasn't that great. Punishing stance upped his damage, but also made him an easy target. His strikes were nice, but only if he hit. Early on, he would have been more effective if he was a barbarian.

Lately, he's been coming into his own. One player dropped the game, leaving the warblade as the prime melee damage dealer. His dice rolls have improved, which has helped him put those strikes in to good effect. He basically saved the party in the last session as he was the only one able to do enough damage to penetrate a golem's DR, or occassionally bypass it altogther (the other front liner is a kensai/knight focused on defence, so he was pinging the golem for 1-4 points a round).

Admittedly, this guy is not the best optimizer in the world; were I running the character, I could probably squeeze a bit more performance out of it. At the start of the game, I warned him that I might make changes to the warblade if I found the class in play to be too powerful. As is, I haven't felt the need to make any changes.

 

[tylermalan]

I don't own the Bo9S, but all the talk about the classes in it around here has made me interested.

Can anyone give me a quick run-down on what stances and manoeuvers are exactly? Also, are they randomized per use or something? Also, (heh) why does everyone say that White Raven is overpowered?

Just curious!

 

[Plane Sailing]

You might find useful and information additional information in these threads from last year:

Tome of Battle: Bo9S classes in actual play?


Tome of Battle classes without the extras

One of the group is buying the Book of Nine Swords. What should I expect?


Cheers

 

[Someone]

I don't own the Bo9S, but all the talk about the classes in it around here has made me interested.

Can anyone give me a quick run-down on what stances and manoeuvers are exactly? Also, are they randomized per use or something? Also, (heh) why does everyone say that White Raven is overpowered?

Just curious!

Martial classes gain a limited number of stances and manevers. Stances are active all the time, and while you can't have more than one of them active, you can change the one you're using quickly. Maneuvers are divided into boosts, strikes and counters, and they play like a mixture of feats and spells: like spells they are divided into 9 levels (you get 1st level maneuvers at 1st level, 2nd level at 3rd, 3rd level at 5th, etc) and are spent when used, though they can be recovered, the exact recovery method depending on your class (or lack of class) and like most feats they have no set limit of uses per day.

It's the Crusader, one of the classes, the one getting the maneuvers randomly, though he doesn't have to do anything to recover them. The other two classes can choose them as they want (within limits depending on class and level) but have to use actions to recover them.

Boosts are usually swift actions and improve something: your damage that round, your speed, etc. Strikes are normally standard or full round action; most maneuvers are strikes, and almost all of them are offensive in nature. Counters are imediate actions and many of them are defensive: you can use the counter as a reaction to an attack.

The most broken White Raven maneuvers are White Raven Tactics (it allows you to effectively give an ally extra turns) and IIRC Warmaster's Charge, which allows all the party to charge, deal ludicrous damage and force the opponent charged to save VS stun (with a stupidly difficult save)