D&D General What if Hit Points were the currency of the game rules?

[Aldarc]

It might work for Cypher system, but it doesn't for D&D because of the whole "run out of hit points and die" concept. Since hit points are tied directly to character death, anything reducing hit points effectively becomes a cause of death. Special/cool maneuvers should be an extension of life - not a cause of death.

This would be a bad idea. It puts your "action resource" under the enemy's control. Every time the enemy hits you, your ability to act is reduced. This promotes a death spiral: When you are in a bad situation, and need to break out the big guns, you can't, because using the big guns will kill you.

Except that's also how exactly it works in the Cypher System too, which works totally fine without the aforementioned problem, and this feeds into the next point.

What is it like in general?

In the Cypher System, characters have points in three stat pools: Might, Speed, and Intellect. Your baseline for these stats are determined by your starting Type, and you typically will get these boosted through your Descriptor, a handful that you can allocate of your choice, and maybe your Focus. These points are used to fuel your special abilities or to lower the TN of a check, which include Attack, Defense, or Skill rolls. This is called Effort, and there is a cap on how much Effort you can spend based upon your level/tier.

Enemies (or the Environment) may also cause damage to these tracks, with most physical attacks typically targeting Might. When any of these three Pools get to zero, then the character becomes Impaired. When any two of these Pools get to zero, then the character becomes Debilitated. When all three of these Pools get to zero, then the character is Dead.

So how can characters manage their Pools? One of the biggest methods is through Edge. When a character spends points from their pool, they can reduce the cost if they have the relevant Edge. For example, a Tier 1 Warrior would have a Might Edge 1, Speed Edge 0, and an Intellect Edge 0. This means that when they spend Might points a Might-based ability or Effort, they can reduce the Might cost by 1 point. But they would not have an Edge for Speed and Intellect based abilities or Effort. Characters get to increase the Edge of their choice by 1 every time they advance to the next Tier. A character's type, focus, or descriptor may also confer additional bonuses to one or more of their Edges.

Also, Armor serves as damage reduction. There is no AC in the game, because the characters make Defense rolls against enemies based upon the enemy's Difficulty: e.g., a character must roll a TN 15 or higher against an enemy with a Difficulty of 5 out of 10 (DC 5 x 3 = TN 15). The enemy's difficulty also determines damage, unless state otherwise. So a Difficulty 5 monster would deal 5 damage on a hit.

Characters can also make Recovery rolls where they can recover points for their Pools, but each time they make this check, the time before they can make their next Recovery roll becomes longer.

In play practice and not white room theorycrafting, the use of cool abilities in the Cypher System has never been the cause of death. In my 5 years of experience of running the Cypher System, I have not seen a player who felt force to choose between life and fun as described or play descend into a death spiral.

 

[JeffB]

I've been enjoying the discussion. Certainly this system would require some things balanced. But assuming the vast amount of Hit Points and commonality of Surges/Rests and HD/HP recovery in 4/5E, I don't see it being that big of a deal- It would certainly make for a more gritty game- but people have been complaining on these boards for years that 4E and 5E were not deadly enough and at a certain point, character death becomes a rarity unless you throw the books out the window and Go Evil DM(c) on the PCs.

Though not a fan of Monte's design work generally I might have to check out Cypher system for kicks.

 

[FrogReaver]

My biggest issue with hp as resource and "toughness to kill" is that a fighter who swings his sword a whole lot and gets hit none - shouldn't be nearly dead by the end of the day.

 

[JeffB]

My biggest issue with hp as resource and "toughness to kill" is that a fighter who swings his sword a whole lot and gets hit none - shouldn't be nearly dead by the end of the day.

If you look at HP as "meat" then yes that makes sense.

If you look at HP as effort ,luck, determination, which is really what HP were designed to be in D&D- then it makes complete sense. The Fighter is exhausted and off his game by the end of the day swinging his sword. It would be very easy to take him out if he has hasn't "recharged" by resting/spending HD/recoveries, etc.

 

[FrogReaver]

If you look at HP as "meat" then yes that makes sense.

If you look at HP as effort ,luck, determination, which is really what HP were designed to be in D&D- then it makes complete sense. The Fighter is exhausted and off his game by the end of the day swinging his sword. It would be very easy to take him out if he has hasn't "recharged" by resting/spending HD/recoveries, etc.

The issue here is that you are saying that depleting 1 thing - stamina will imply the fighter is almost dead (the next hit will kill him) - but survivability (hp) can also include luck and it's hard to believe that was depleted by swinging the sword.

So why is the fighter almost dead when he still has his luck?

 

[FrogReaver]

So I'm envisioning a system with 2 parts.

Hp that is luck, divine favaor and meat combination.
Stamina - that is effort and determination combination.

Abilities run off stamina.
Everything else comes off your hp.

Damage could potentially come directly off stamina - following the notion that the player expends effort to get out of the way of the hit.

I think I actually like the dynamics of this 2 part system.

 

[Fenris-77]

That seems far more flexible and sensible than HP equals meat, a reading I've never found convincing. The idea of expending extra heroic effort at some cost to the character has a place in D&D I think. Very heroic.

 

[FrogReaver]

That seems far more flexible and sensible than HP equals meat, a reading I've never found convincing. The idea of expending extra heroic effort at some cost to the character has a place in D&D I think. Very heroic.

Let's not start up the hp meat discussion

 

[DND_Reborn]

So I'm envisioning a system with 2 parts.

Hp that is luck, divine favaor and meat combination.
Stamina - that is effort and determination combination.

Abilities run off stamina.
Everything else comes off your hp.

Damage could potentially come directly off stamina - following the notion that the player expends effort to get out of the way of the hit.

I think I actually like the dynamics of this 2 part system.

New to the conversation, so forgive me if I am covering old material.

This sounds a lot to me similar to the SWSE Vitality/Wounds system. IMO, the best ever.

We adopted it to D&D for a while and I loved it, the only problem was the constant booking for the homebrew we used. I made a lot of sense, but ultimately dropped it in favor of simplicity.

That is my only argument when looking at a new system: does any added complexity make worth the effort for the fun gained?

 

[FrogReaver]

New to the conversation, so forgive me if I am covering old material.

This sounds a lot to me similar to the SWSE Vitality/Wounds system. IMO, the best ever.

We adopted it to D&D for a while and I loved it, the only problem was the constant booking for the homebrew we used. I made a lot of sense, but ultimately dropped it in favor of simplicity.

That is my only argument when looking at a new system: does any added complexity make worth the effort for the fun gained?

Did it require stamina resources to cast spells and attack? Were there defensive maneuvers that ultimately resulted in less stamina loss than just taking the hit on your stamina?