What inspired the D&D magic rules and do you like it?

[pdkoning]

I am wondering what inspired the caster level, spell levels, spell slots and such. Or is it just something Gygax invented?
What inspired the D&D magic rules? I sometimes see it referred to as a 'vancian' system, what does 'vancian' mean?

And do you like it the way it is? or would you like a system with spell points or some other system?

I would prefer a system that uses spell points, or no magic at all.

By the way: thread is not intented to start a low-magic versus high-magic debate

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I am wondering what inspired the caster level, spell levels, spell slots and such. Or is it just something Gygax invented?
What inspired the D&D magic rules? I sometimes see it referred to as a 'vancian' system, what does 'vancian' mean?

Jack Vance's book The Dying Earth. Get it. It's great. That was the first appearance of spells-as-bullets and also the source of some D&D spells and magic items.

Oh, brief aside about spell points: I find they work well at low levels, but they break down around the middle levels. Just my experience.

 

[Desdichado]

Jack Vance. D&D magic is often called "Vancian" magic, because it fairly closely resembles the works of sword & sorcery author Jack Vance. As to levels, slots and whatnot, that's an interpretation of Jack Vance into a wargamer paradigm, and yes, I think Gygax can probably be credited with it.

And no, I don't particularly like it. I'm not that fond of spell points either, though. I like systems where spell use causes fatigue of some kind, which translates into rougher yet more or less equivalent actual spell use. Has better flavor, IMO, and is more to my taste, though.

 

[Klaus]

"Vancian" refers to the works of fantasy author Jack Vance. His take on spellcasters (namely, the fact that wizards had to study and memorize their spells daily) is one of the greatest influences over what made D&D. If you go to amazon.com and search for his name, you can sample a few pages of his books. Try the first few pages of the "Dying Earth" book, as it shows a wizard memorizing his spells for a journey.

Also of note is the fact that in 3.0/3.5 spellcasters no longer "memorize" spells, but rather "prepare" them, doing 90% of the casting in advance.

Spell point systems are nice, but they require a bit more micromanaging than some novice players are willing to do. A system like Shadowrun (along the lines of "make a save or take nonlethal/lethal damage) would be nice too.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Spell point systems are nice, but they require a bit more micromanaging than some novice players are willing to do. A system like Shadowrun (along the lines of "make a save or take nonlethal/lethal damage) would be nice too.

I'd be cool with that if wizards got more hit points. You don't want to drain the one resource that wizards infamously lack.

 

[Turanil]

Read Jack Vance's related novels:

-- The Dying Earth
-- Cugel the Clever
-- Cugel Saga
-- Rialtho the Marvellous

I wanted to buy the d20 Dying-Earth magic supplement, but reviews said it was poorly done, and it was expensive.

Note that there is a role-playing game (not d20) specifically for the Dying Earth setting, which emphasizes on social interractions / Bluff that is so specific (and hilarious) of Jack Vance's work. It is also found as a PDf on rpgnow.com.

 

[pdkoning]

Interesting, thank you for pointing to the books from Jack Vance.

We might continue this thread by asking: should D&D 4e include another magic system?

 

[ghettognome]

I like the idea of a spellpoint system, but in order to make it balanced at all levels, there would have to be a lot of work done. I think that it would be nice if 4e gave an alternative in addition to the norm, for more options at least.
The idea of spells taking it's toll to make it more real and purposeful is nice to a certain degree, but really only in flavor with certain types of campaigns.

 

[Khayman]

I'm personally a fan of the magic system from Ars Magica --- it can cause fatigue and injury, but you can cast it all day long if you're skilled or lucky. The down side of it is that you have very few defined spells, and the rest is whipped up on the fly. That requires a bit of sober judgement on the part of the referee, and it may not port well into D&D.

 

[Khayman]

Anybody had a chance to use the magic system from Black Company yet?