D&D 5E What interupts a long rest?

[MarkB]

The simplest solution would be to not tie this refreshment of abilities to long rests. Short rests work adequately, let's keep them in, but have long rests just used to refresh HP and hit dice.

Everything else refreshes at a set point, like dawn, or else you can manually reset it as part of a short or long rest, but only once per day.

 

[Charlaquin]

@clearstream : Ok, so I gather that you think there’s a problem with the recharge rates of various abilities like spells, and that you think changing the wording of rests will fix it. And you’ve stressed why you think it’s an important problem to solve. I’m still not really clear on what the problem is though? Like, you mention the 5 minute workday, so is the problem you’re trying to solve that it’s too easy to get a long rest in dangerous territory? You mentioned the recent change from short rest abilities to prof bonus per long rest, so is the problem that short rests are too hard to get? What specific gameplay problem are you trying to fix?

 

[MarkB]

@clearstream On reflection, while my previously-proposed 'solution' would untangle the refreshment of daily features from long rests, that doesn't actually do anything to resolve the 5MWD issue. And it occurred to me that I have seen this issue tackled, but in a rather different format - the videogame Fallout 4, and its Adrenaline system. Here's how it works in that game, if you're interested:

Spoiler: Fallout 4 Adrenaline

Basically, in this game's Survival mode, the character must manage the need to eat, drink and sleep. But once you have an established base, food and water aren't a huge concern while you're there, so it would be pretty easy to go back and rest frequently and not worry about that side of things.

So, how to incentivise players to actually push ahead through a day, potentially taking the culumative stat-penalties resulting from overtiredness, rather than just going home and sleeping frequently?

Answer: Adrenaline. Every time you get a successful kill, you accumulate a little Adrenaline, and as your Adrenaline level ticks up, you get a cumulative bonus to the damage you deal that becomes very substantial at its highest levels. The longer you keep adventuring without resting, the easier it becomes to take down enemies, encouraging you to keep pushing through more encounters, and through at least the milder levels of fatigue, because once you do actually take a rest, your Adrenaline level will drop to zero.

So, how to implement this in D&D? I propose something like this:

Each time the party gets through an encounter with something that would place at least one of them in peril (i.e. something that would deal damage or otherwise be harmful, whether or not anyone was actually harmed - whether it's a trap, a combat encounter, a deadly puzzle, etc.) they gain a point of Adrenaline. Characters can accumulate a maximum of 3 points of Adrenaline. Taking a short rest reduces your Adrenaline by 1 point, and taking a long rest reduces it to zero.

So, what does Adrenaline do? Very simple: For almost all purposes, your current Adrenaline score is added to your Proficiency bonus. So it boosts your attack rolls, your proficient saving throws and ability checks, your spell attack bonus and your spell save DC. The only thing it doesn't boost is the number of uses of an ability whose number of uses is determined by your Proficiency bonus.

This is obviously pretty powerful. A party with 3 Adrenaline can punch significantly above their weight. But they lose Adrenaline every time they rest to replenish their resources.

 

[clearstream]

Each time the party gets through an encounter with something that would place at least one of them in peril (i.e. something that would deal damage or otherwise be harmful, whether or not anyone was actually harmed - whether it's a trap, a combat encounter, a deadly puzzle, etc.) they gain a point of Adrenaline. Characters can accumulate a maximum of 3 points of Adrenaline. Taking a short rest reduces your Adrenaline by 1 point, and taking a long rest reduces it to zero.

So, what does Adrenaline do? Very simple: For almost all purposes, your current Adrenaline score is added to your Proficiency bonus. So it boosts your attack rolls, your proficient saving throws and ability checks, your spell attack bonus and your spell save DC. The only thing it doesn't boost is the number of uses of an ability whose number of uses is determined by your Proficiency bonus.

This is obviously pretty powerful. A party with 3 Adrenaline can punch significantly above their weight. But they lose Adrenaline every time they rest to replenish their resources.

The 5th edition approach seems to be to make rests awkward. Characters don't take long rests just anytime because... they're easily interrupted (albeit, they are hard to interrupt)? I think your solution goes in a thoughtful direction. My current questions with rests take a similarly positive rather than negative view, i.e. we value what ability refreshes do for our game play, therefore...

1. What has to happen, rather than not happen, for a full ability refresh?
2. What might occur while characters are refreshing abilities, so that it matters in the game world that they took that break?
3. Why are we counting a pause to refresh abilities in hours, given that the difference between 6 and 8 hours on our imaginary clock is next to nothing (do we differentiate consistently between 6 and 8 hours? and what about between 6 hours and 7 hours?)
4. Is there a price that might be paid, or leverage over the narrative that might be given up (e.g. your proposal), to gain an ability refresh?
5. Why even bother with it (which I believe is contended by the RAI, but which goes against the benefits that I discussed - incompletely - above)

Of course the issue with 4. is always going to be that the dominant strategy will be whatever is mechanically favoured. It's actually for that reason that I prefer what I call "narrative rests," meaning that the cost is felt in what happens in the emergent story. I feel at minimum we would want anything like adrenaline to be strongly differentiated from refreshed abilities in terms of the leverage on offer.

There are maybe five classes of solution that you commonly see

• Mechanically forced, e.g. you count encounters, with no short rest possible until the count is 2+ and no long rest possible until the count is 6+
• Difficult, e.g. requires an easily interrupted period of downtime (note the obvious tension with the RAI)
• Costly, e.g. you have to pay or give up something for the rest
• Sporting agreement (with players) to not rest too often
• Ignore it (in effect, the most supported by the RAI)

Something to notice about difficulty and costs, is that the former relies on a DM to make it difficult. In theory, the RAI still requires rests. In practice, it so softens difficulty (the class of solution chosen by 5th edition) that it amounts to either sporting agreement or ignoring. The latter on the other hand divides into costs that are felt in the leverage players will have over the emergent narrative, and costs that are felt in the progression of the emergent narrative by the DM. I suspect that costs felt in leverage will on the whole feel more gamey, hence for the time being I am more interested in costs that are felt in how the DM might plausibly advance the narrative. Although I am not necessarily seeking a pure solution - a hybrid might be what is strongest.

 

[G R (grizzyGR)]

I really enjoy these nitty gritty discussions of RAW vs RAI. For some reason I feel the urge to know every rule as RAW so that when I do decide to change, alter, or eliminate something it’s an informed decision and not a misunderstanding. However, I think everyone should keep in mind that every single rule is optional. If something doesn’t fit the style of your game or campaign or your group then it is only right to change or eliminate rules.