What is a "Narrative Mechanic"?

[Fenris-77]

But flashbacks in BitD abandon any pretence that it is the GM who is playing the world. That's what marks the line, in my view.

Yup. The flashback mechanic is doing some genre emulation work in BitD (flashbacks and reveals are a staple of heist type media) and it's also doing a specific table time job of minimizing analysis paralysis which is a common issue when a table turns to planning something like a heist and the players start to try and anticipate every possible problem. It works great in Blades but it's not something I'd put into any old game.

 

[Fenris-77]

Interestingly, because this doesn't actually change the "traditional" allocation of authority, I would expect it to be less controversial.

I find that players who value notions of immersion closer to the top of their TTRPG priorities are the same players who don't like this particular kind of mechanic at the table. That's neither good nor bad, just a thing.

 

[pemerton]

Yup. The flashback mechanic is doing some genre emulation work in BitD (flashbacks and reveals are a staple of heist type media) and it's also doing a specific table time job of minimizing analysis paralysis which is a common issue when a table turns to planning something like a heist and the players start to try and anticipate every possible problem. It works great in Blades but it's not something I'd put into any old game.

Well, as I've often mentioned (because I'm rather pleased with it!), the first account of a flashback mechanic I'm aware of was right here on ENworld:

But which of Diplomacy, Acrobatics or Arcana is the correct skill? You (the player) tell me (another player, or the GM).

Using Diplomacy: "Remember that time we were visiting the Wizards' Guild in Greyhawk? And I was buttering up that Burglomancer specialist? She told me a heap of old magical passwords - I try them all." The player rolls Diplomacy (probably at a hard DC - it's a pretty far-fetched story!) to see if this is true.

Using Acrobatics: "As the Watcher in the Water writhes about with its tentacles, I dodge at the last minute so it smashes into the door and breaks it." That might be a hard DC as well.

Using Arcana: "I speak a spell of opening". Medium DC. Or "I speak a spell of recall, to remember all the passwords and riddles I've learned over the years". That's more interesting and more clever- let's say a Medium DC with a +2 circumstance modifier.

That flashbacks pertain to gear rather than (say) contacts is a matter of genre/flavour.

The structural point, I think, is who is understood to have authority over the fiction.

 

[Fenris-77]

The structural point, I think, is who is understood to have authority over the fiction.

This is an interesting point when it comes to flashback mechanics. In some ways the effect they have on the fiction isn't any different than a special ability possessed by a character that lets them avoid an obstacle or challenge framed by the GM. In some other obvious ways they are different but I'd suggest that the main difference is actually more about feel, or perhaps at least as much about feel, as opposed who's actually in charge of the fiction.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So D&D is a game about fulfilling the dramatic needs of the PC's - does that mean D&D is a narrative game?

There's certainly a strong premise, but then the focus of play is not about what an adventurer is or how and why you are one. It's all about the setting/situation really, the stuff that makes up the adventure and how that adventure goes. We need not learn anything about the specific PCs. Probably any typical party of the same level will have largely the same adventure.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I linked to a review upthread.

Here are some posts of mine:

Thank you! This is very helpful.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But flashbacks in BitD abandon any pretence that it is the GM who is playing the world. That's what marks the line, in my view.

Heh. And yet I'd call them a hardcore sim mechanic. In this case genre sim - replicating perfectly the scene in oh so many heist shows when all looks lost and then they show what's really going on.

I find that players who value notions of immersion closer to the top of their TTRPG priorities are the same players who don't like this particular kind of mechanic at the table. That's neither good nor bad, just a thing.

I find there to be two groups here. Those who value notions of immersion within the broader D&D scene and those towards the storygames end of the spectrum. And at least from my own experience I get far more immersion and bleed from PbtA games than I ever have from D&D.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is picked up in @Neonchameleon's "fudge" mechanics, or informal equivalents, when these are regulated on the GM side. The GM permitting a player to retrospectively update their PC sheet ("I would have remembered to bring some rope!") is consistent with overall simulationist sensibilities, provided it doesn't become the norm, because it is still the GM "playing" or mediating the world. We could almost say that, in this situation, the player lets the GM temporarily play their PC, and the GM plays the PC as having remembered rope.

If we formalise that sort of system into "fate tokens" or whatever - the player gets so many do-overs or retries or retrofits - but the GM maintains an overall veto over outcomes, again provided it doesn't become the norm it can be accommodated within many simulationist sensibilities.

But flashbacks in BitD abandon any pretence that it is the GM who is playing the world. That's what marks the line, in my view.

EDIT to address this too:
The difference from knowledge checks in typical D&D (cf Wises in Burning Wheel) is that those knowledge checks still have the GM playing the world.

This is a reasonable way to look at it. It clarifies for me that I don't want the players to play the world at the table. I want the GM to listen to the players and accommodate their desires if the existing setting makes that practical, but to also have the final say. Any design choice or mechanic in a D&D-like game that goes against that is not going to be received well by me, as a GM or a player.

Thank you. That was enlightening.

 

[Fenris-77]

Heh. And yet I'd call them a hardcore sim mechanic. In this case genre sim - replicating perfectly the scene in oh so many heist shows when all looks lost and then they show what's really going on.

I find there to be two groups here. Those who value notions of immersion within the broader D&D scene and those towards the storygames end of the spectrum. And at least from my own experience I get far more immersion and bleed from PbtA games than I ever have from D&D.

Yeah, I was indexing the more (sort of) simulationist end of the immersion spectrum.

 

[FrogReaver]

How is this non-diegetic? It all happens within the fictional game world.

The whole point of such an inventory system is so that the player doesn't have to engage with it in the game world. The game world totally skips the inventory part so that the player can simply declare post hoc what was brought.

I think you take adiegetic to mean there is no part of the mechanic that ever feeds back into the game world - but that's simply not how I and others are using it. In fact, if that was the definition then there's no adiegetic mechanics at all, ever.

This is similar. This is all established in the game world. Yes, the player calls for one, but aside from the timing of it, the character is the one doing everything. It's just something that's established retroactively in play.

At least we agree on the similarity. The whole point of a flashback mechanic is so that the player doesn't have to engage with the game world to actually preplan something. They simple declare it, spend some stress and they are awarded with the chance to play through a cut scene to get the effect they want.

But Stress is a thing in the game world... it's something that builds up and of which the characters are aware. They have to actively take action to reduce stress.

Yes it is, but so what? Just because stress exists in the game world doesn't mean doing a flashback costing 2 stress is something that also exists in the game world.

To say it more generally - Pointing out diegetic aspects doesn't mean there are no adiegetic aspects.