What is a "Narrative Mechanic"?

The whole point of such an inventory system is so that the player doesn't have to engage with it in the game world. The game world totally skips the inventory part so that the player can simply declare post hoc what was brought.
In the case of Blades there's more nuance than just 'say what you brought later'. Those equipment slots can still only be filled from the available equipment on the character sheet which is all diegetically indexed and which I might describe as genre appropriate. A small difference perhaps.
 

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There's certainly a strong premise, but then the focus of play is not about what an adventurer is or how and why you are one. It's all about the setting/situation really, the stuff that makes up the adventure and how that adventure goes. We need not learn anything about the specific PCs. Probably any typical party of the same level will have largely the same adventure.
Or one could say you learn the most important thing about the specific PC's and who they are by following their deeds! That's a type of focus of play around what this adventurer is. How or why you are one may or may not matter - those aren't essential questions for drama. But it can all still be framed around drama.

High level, the terms we use to differentiate games are usually still applicable in both directions and it takes some very precise language (often to the point where exceptions rather than principles rule the definition to actually make them distinct).
 

In the case of Blades there's more nuance than just 'say what you brought later'. Those equipment slots can still only be filled from the available equipment on the character sheet which is all diegetically indexed and which I might describe as genre appropriate. A small difference perhaps.
Sure. But going back to the principle - Having diegetic aspects don't mean there are no adiegetic aspects.
 


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The whole point of such an inventory system is so that the player doesn't have to engage with it in the game world. The game world totally skips the inventory part so that the player can simply declare post hoc what was brought.

I would argue that’s not the entire point. I believe that is part of the reason for it… it fits with the “get to the action” ideology of Blades. But it is also about creating decision points during play. Not before play, but during play. Players are not allowed to declare anything they want… they work off a set list, and they’re limited to a certain number of inventory slots.

Inventory in Blades comes up so much more frequently than it does in most other games I’ve played. So the idea that the player doesn’t have to engage with it is clearly false. You have to engage with it every session.

I think you take adiegetic to mean there is no part of the mechanic that ever feeds back into the game world - but that's simply not how I and others are using it. In fact, if that was the definition then there's no adiegetic mechanics at all, ever.

Diegetic (somewhat ironically, in this case) means “part of the narrative”, or for RPGs, part of the game world. Loadout and item selection is part of the game world.

There are indeed nondiegetic game mechanics… I already provided an example from Blades: the Devil’s Bargain. I’d say that Inspiration from 5e is likely another. Hero points and other bennies with no in game relation… there are likely very many we could list.

At least we agree on the similarity. The whole point of a flashback mechanic is so that the player doesn't have to engage with the game world to actually preplan something. They simple declare it, spend some stress and they are awarded with the chance to play through a cut scene to get the effect they want.

I meant it was similar to the loadout/gear system in that it’s all related to the character. The Flashback mechanic is there to represent the scoundrel’s ability, experience, knowledge, and luck. It represents the character’s ability to know what he’ll need.

Most games are more about testing the players. Making sure the players have chosen what the character will need. Did they write it all on their character sheet ahead of time.

I mean, looking at it that way, it seems odd to call character ability nondiegetic and player ability diegetic. It seems quite the opposite.

Yes it is, but so what? Just because stress exists in the game world doesn't mean doing a flashback costing 2 stress is something that also exists in the game world.

No, the flashback is just when we learn of the events. But otherwise the events of a flashback work just like they would in any other game. The player declares an action for the character, and then we use the rules to determine how it goes, with the GM narrating results. The situation took some effort on the part of the character, which is represented by stress.

Nothing that’s happening in the fiction for the characters is anything they couldn’t do. In the game, we’re simply not adhering to strict chronology. The breach in chronology is entirely nondiegetic.

To say it more generally - Pointing out diegetic aspects doesn't mean there are no adiegetic aspects.

I don’t know if I agree with that. Yes the player calls for the flashback. But the character doesn’t experience it. They experience the events of the flashback. But this is no different than the many other ways that games establish details retroactively.
 

I provided the description not far upthread:
The above is the description in question.

There's actually a terrific essay about it, more than 20 years old now: The Forge :: Simulationism: The Right to Dream

We don't have to reinvent the conceptual and terminological wheel if we don't want to!
Anyone interested in the subject should also read On GNS simulationism. The earlier (Forge) essay supplies some analysis focused on how simulationism has been traditionally achieved. I read it as strong in a sort of "identifying one's enemy" way, albeit fatally flawed in terms of knowing why said "enemy" is fighting in the first place. Tuovinen's essay sheds more light on that significant facet: the two work well when read together.

A reason the latter is crucial is that adhering to the earlier analysis can result in (effectively) assuming that important developments over the last twenty years are of little utility to simulationism. Trad-simulationism can be contrasted with "neo-simulationism" (as it might be labelled) which, through focusing on the creative ambition, uncovers ways to use those - frequently more collaborative - techniques.

TTRPG is founded upon immersion and exploration (via control of character, with few exceptions), so simulationism cannot be distinguished by those elements alone. It's the ambition to achieve elevated appreciation of subject that marks it out. A moments reflection on that should be enough to see that habitual comfort or discomfort with techniques is not identical to their utility. But they do produce disparate intuitions in ways similar to what @Fenris-77 and @hawkeyefan have been discussing about what folk feel is (non)diagetic.
 

Diegetic (somewhat ironically, in this case) means “part of the narrative”, or for RPGs, part of the game world. Loadout and item selection is part of the game world.

There are indeed nondiegetic game mechanics… I already provided an example from Blades: the Devil’s Bargain. I’d say that Inspiration from 5e is likely another. Hero points and other bennies with no in game relation… there are likely very many we could list.
One could describe Devil's Bargain, Inspiration, and Bennies (here thinking of Savage Worlds) as non-diegetic on the grounds that they are all ways to make sure that when the player means it, the character means it. (So they are about the player.) On the other hand, I don't find them in play necessarily so. Characters can know that they have extra reserves of strength, luck, or gambles with fate to draw upon at need. They can go into desperate situations believing that with grit and determination, at a cost now or later, they might prevail.

As I said earlier in the thread, the division seems largely about what one is prepared to count into or out of acceptable justifications. In GURPS Goblins, the folk of London grasp their superstitions actively - given a swallow flying in an open window presages death, find one and release it near the open windows of a rival! Grasping superstitions as a sort of world-magic with active utility isn't far from bargaining with the Devil to achieve ones goals.

I meant it was similar to the loadout/gear system in that it’s all related to the character. The Flashback mechanic is there to represent the scoundrel’s ability, experience, knowledge, and luck. It represents the character’s ability to know what he’ll need.
Games are symbolic and analogic: it makes perfect sense to have mechanics that are somewhat abstract stand for things that are taken to be realistic aspects of the game world. In the game I referenced above, shooting is a test against theology. Is that diegetic? In the game world, yes: the mafia are devout catholics.
 
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And at least from my own experience I get far more immersion and bleed from PbtA games than I ever have from D&D.
The most immersive games I have ever played are what has been more recently labelled "FKR"!

(Our label for them is "diceless RPG" because those we play use a mixture of drama and karma, not fortune.)
 

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