What is an "Attack Action" and "Full Attack Action"

[Hypersmurf]

Arrrrh, that's right, it's talk like a pirate day!

So why isn't a charge action a full attack action, matey?

The full attack action is a full round action that allows you to make potentially several attacks, melee or ranged or a combination.

The charge action is a full round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed in a straight line directly towards an opponent and make a single melee attack with a +2 bonus while taking a -2 penalty to AC.

The two are completely unrelated. It's like saying "Why isn't the charge action a Cast a Spell action?"

If you say "The charge action is a full attack action", then suddenly anything that says "You must take the full attack action to gain this extra attack" can be used on a charge action. I charge... and because charge is a full attack action, I can get my extra attack from Rapid Shot, my off-hand attacks, and my extra attack from Haste.

I'd like to see an example of some of those.

I've already given you the Charge action as an example.

The Cast a Spell action can allow you to make a melee touch attack, but it is not the Attack action.

And I've quoted where the rules refer to "a melee attack, not an action", clearly distinguishing between the attack and the action that permits the attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

The full attack action is a full round action that allows you to make potentially several attacks, melee or ranged or a combination.

The charge action is a full round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed in a straight line directly towards an opponent and make a single melee attack with a +2 bonus while taking a -2 penalty to AC.

The two are completely unrelated. It's like saying "Why isn't the charge action a Cast a Spell action?"

If you say "The charge action is a full attack action", then suddenly anything that says "You must take the full attack action to gain this extra attack" can be used on a charge action. I charge... and because charge is a full attack action, I can get my extra attack from Rapid Shot, my off-hand attacks, and my extra attack from Haste.

-Hyp.

You're right sorry I asked the wrong question. A charge is a special attack that allows you to make a "single melee attack" "After moving". A melee attack is a subset of the attack action. So why isn't a charge a special action that grants you a bonus, but restricted, attack action?

 

[Mistwell]

And I've quoted where the rules refer to "a melee attack, not an action", clearly distinguishing between the attack and the action that permits the attack.
-Hyp.

I must have missed that one. Would you mind repeating it? It sounds like it would clear things up for me if it specifically says that something is a melee attack that is not an action of any kind.

[Edit - OK I found the quote. It is referring specifically to trips, grapples, and disarms, and says "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

Which means a melee attack is something you can make during a standard attack action, or during a full attack action (multiple times). Which means a melee attack is not always a subset of a standard action, but can be a subset of other things. Interesting.]

 

[Hypersmurf]

I must have missed that one. Would you mind repeating it? It sounds like it would clear things up for me if it specifically says that something is a melee attack that is not an action of any kind.

The footnote for Trip, Grapple, and Disarm on Table 8-2:
"These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

A charge is a special attack that allows you to make a "single melee attack" "After moving". A melee attack is a subset of the attack action. So why isn't a charge a special action that grants you a bonus, but restricted, attack action?

The description of a melee attack is found under the Attack action, but it is not a subset of that action. There are actions and effects outside the Attack action that reference melee attacks, and while you go to the Attack action in the book to find that information, those other actions are accessing melee attacks directly, rather than going through the Attack action 'layer' to get there.

When I take the Full Attack action and make four attacks, I am taking a single full round action which includes four melee attacks. It does not include four standard actions. I'm using melee attacks - much information about which is found under the standard action, 'Attack' - without actually taking the standard action, 'Attack', at any time.

The Charge action, likewise, includes a melee attack without requiring the use of the standard action, 'Attack'.

-Hyp.

 

[ShaggySpellsword]

Actions and actions are two entirely separate things.

an action is any time your character does something, he is acting. That's common sense.

But when a character takes an Action he is using up a (usually) limited resource.

Each round you get one Standard Action and one Move Action, and you can trade them both in for a Full-Round Action. These are the game terms that represent your time resource.

When you decide to use your Standard Action to make an attack, you have decided to make an Attack Action.

Attacks of Opportunities do not grant any sort of bonus Actions, they simply grant a bonus attack.

All Attack Actions allow you to attack
Not all Attacks are Attack Actions.

It is like saying that All squares are rectangles-this is true
It is not true that All rectangles are squares though.

 

[Mistwell]

The footnote for Trip, Grapple, and Disarm on Table 8-2:
"These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."



The description of a melee attack is found under the Attack action, but it is not a subset of that action. There are actions and effects outside the Attack action that reference melee attacks, and while you go to the Attack action in the book to find that information, those other actions are accessing melee attacks directly, rather than going through the Attack action 'layer' to get there.

When I take the Full Attack action and make four attacks, I am taking a single full round action which includes four melee attacks. It does not include four standard actions. I'm using melee attacks - much information about which is found under the standard action, 'Attack' - without actually taking the standard action, 'Attack', at any time.

The Charge action, likewise, includes a melee attack without requiring the use of the standard action, 'Attack'.

-Hyp.

YAR, we are having a duel of the edits here

OK, I agree. A melee attack is not only a subset of the standard action or attack action. It can be a subset of other things as well, such as the full attack action. Which means if something says you make a melee attack, it doesn't necessarily mean you are making an attack action.

 

[irdeggman]

"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack"

A melee attack is defined as an attack action.

Much like Improved Trip, Cleave, and other things don't appear on a list, you look to the bonus action they are granting you (or in this case the language is "free attacks", which I read as "bonus attack"). In this case the bonus action is a melee attack, which is an attack action. It has restrictions on it, specified in the AoO rules.

PHB pg 135:

An attack of opportunity is a free melee attack that does not use up any of your actions.

So it technically is not an action.

 

[Mistwell]

Actions and actions are two entirely separate things.

an action is any time your character does something, he is acting. That's common sense.

But when a character takes an Action he is using up a (usually) limited resource.

Each round you get one Standard Action and one Move Action, and you can trade them both in for a Full-Round Action. These are the game terms that represent your time resource.

When you decide to use your Standard Action to make an attack, you have decided to make an Attack Action.

Actually, if I am understanding it right, not necessarily. You can use your standard action to make a trip attempt, a grapple attempt, a disarm attempt, a partial charge (when allowed), to cast a spell involving a simultaneous touch attack, and other things. All of these permit a melee attack, but apparently they are not Attack Actions but classified as something else. Not all attacks made using a standard action are an Attack Action, according those those who were debating this topic with me in this thread (who I think I now agree with).

Attacks of Opportunities do not grant any sort of bonus Actions, they simply grant a bonus attack.

All Attack Actions allow you to attack
Not all Attacks are Attack Actions.

It is like saying that All squares are rectangles-this is true
It is not true that All rectangles are squares though.

I still think an AOO is an action of some sort. It's listed as a free attack, which sounds like they are implying it's a free action usable once per round out of your turn unless you have a feat like combat reflexes.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, if I am understanding it right, not necessarily. You can use your standard action to make a trip attempt, a grapple attempt, a disarm attempt, a partial charge (when allowed), to cast a spell involving a simultaneous touch attack, and other things. All of these permit a melee attack, but apparently they are not Attack Actions but classified as something else. Not all attacks made using a standard action are an Attack Action, according those those who were debating this topic with me in this thread (who I think I now agree with).

Actually, you don't use your standard action to make a trip, grapple, or disarm; ths is a case where you do, in fact, use your standard action to take the Attack action, and then substitute your trip, grapple, or disarm for the melee attack granted by the Attack action.

So you can use Combat Expertise when tripping, for example, because you're using the Attack action to do it.

The restricted charge and the 1 action touch spell are examples where you're taking a standard action that isn't the Attack action, and making a melee attack as a result of it.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Actually, you don't use your standard action to make a trip, grapple, or disarm; ths is a case where you do, in fact, use your standard action to take the Attack action, and then substitute your trip, grapple, or disarm for the melee attack granted by the Attack action.

So you can use Combat Expertise when tripping, for example, because you're using the Attack action to do it.

The restricted charge and the 1 action touch spell are examples where you're taking a standard action that isn't the Attack action, and making a melee attack as a result of it.

-Hyp.

Ah right, because the special attacks are substitutions for the melee attack. Gotcha.

OK, I am convinced. Thank you for clearing this issue up for me.