What is brittle/crystalline?

[Felix]

actually, by a strict logical interpretation of the phrase "brittle or crystalline," objects that meet both conditions would NOT be effected, since the condition "or" does not allow for "and."

The Shout and Greater Shout logic goes like this:
IF brittle, THEN shatter.
IF crystalline, THEN shatter.

Something that is both brittle and crystalline will shatter, because when the first criterion is checked, the result is that it shatters. Being included in both sets does not exempt the item.

If item E Brittle U Crystalline, then shatter.
"If the item is an element of the union of the set of brittle things and the set of crystalline things, then the item shatters." The overlap is not excluded in a Union.

Rusty things would take damage... they're brittle. Most things wouldn't though, it's just an added thingy on a spell that does sonic damage.

 

[Malin Genie]

it's just an added thingy on a spell that does sonic damage.

I always thought of Great Shout (the 3.0E version, anyway) as a weapon-breaking spell with the side effect of also dealing some sonic damage to creatures....

 

[dcollins]

actually, by a strict logical interpretation of the phrase "brittle or crystalline," objects that meet both conditions would NOT be effected, since the condition "or" does not allow for "and."

No. The formal definition of "or" in logic includes the situation where both cases are satisfied. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction

 

[MerakSpielman]

well FINE.

 

[kigmatzomat]

All your examples are things that are both brittle and crystalline. Surely the spell would also be able to affect things that are merely brittle or crystalline.

I'd say that anything that would shatter into numerous, sharp shards when you hit it with a hammer would qualify as brittle (such as a brick, or an old, dry skull).

The hammer definition's pretty good. Brittle is the opposite of ductile. Ductile items bend (like paper clips) while brittle items snap (like pretzels). Metals in general are ductile, stone in general is brittle. (There are exceptions to every rule; cheap wrought iron will shatter like glass in many cases)

I never consider living wood brittle, nor the inner bits of living creatures despite the fact that teeth and other bones are ofen fairly brittle. Outer bits, however, are fair game so giant insects and other creatures with carapaces or exoskeletons are vulnerable to Shout spells IMC.

I'm having trouble coming up with a description of crystalline that doesn't go into modern chemestry, atoms, or molecules. Anybody got any ideas?

Crystal basically means that when you smash it the pieces are regularly formed, or at least the irregular bits are constructed of lots of smaller regular bits. Crush salt and you get big cubes and small cubes. Smash the big cubes and you'll get small cubes. Silicon, IIRC, is a rhomboid crystal, mica forms octangonal structures, etc, etc. (Disclaimer: it's been >5 years since I studied geology so don't get hung up if I misremember a crystal)

Lego can model crystal well. If you build with all the same block (2x2 or 4x2) and you get a model of a pure crystal. Smash it and you end up with sub-crystals. Crystals maintain their shape from the molecular level up.

 

[Doctor Bomb]

My general rule for "brittleness" is Hardness > 1/2 Hit Points per Inch. That includes wood, crystal, ice, and most stone, but excludes earthen walls, living creatures, and most metals.

 

[Malin Genie]

Interesting that there seems to be no consensus on what might be "brittle or crystalline" - might be worth e-mailing for an 'official' answer...