What is cheating?

[Oryan77]

I know people can't help metagaming sometimes when they know what a monster can do or what a spell can do when their PC shouldn't know. There's not much you can do about it but ask the player not to tell others and to try to play his PC as if the PC doesn't know.

But what type of things do you concider flat out cheating?

If a player looks up spells in the PHB just to figure out what spell the DM cast?

If a player knows a monster is immune to spells (but his PC doesn't) and he tells the group "I think these are immune to all spells?

If a player uses a program on his laptop to calculate ECL vs a monsters CR (he's not supposed to know the CR of the monster) and tells players that this monster is way to hard for them?

If a player purposely doesn't remind the DM of a rule the DM forgot about just so a PC won't suffer the effects? You suspect this because he coincidently brings it up 2 rounds later that you forgot something.

Do you think any/all/or none of these things is cheating? What other kind of incidents do you concider cheating that aren't so obvious?

Also, is it possible for a DM to cheat? If he's fudging things behind the screen simply to enhance the game, would you still find that cheating on the DM's part?

 

[Lorgrom]

I know people can't help metagaming sometimes when they know what a monster can do or what a spell can do when their PC shouldn't know. There's not much you can do about it but ask the player not to tell others and to try to play his PC as if the PC doesn't know.

But what type of things do you concider flat out cheating?

If a player looks up spells in the PHB just to figure out what spell the DM cast?

If a player knows a monster is immune to spells (but his PC doesn't) and he tells the group "I think these are immune to all spells?

If a player uses a program on his laptop to calculate ECL vs a monsters CR (he's not supposed to know the CR of the monster) and tells players that this monster is way to hard for them?

If a player purposely doesn't remind the DM of a rule the DM forgot about just so a PC won't suffer the effects? You suspect this because he coincidently brings it up 2 rounds later that you forgot something.

Do you think any/all/or none of these things is cheating? What other kind of incidents do you concider cheating that aren't so obvious?

Also, is it possible for a DM to cheat? If he's fudging things behind the screen simply to enhance the game, would you still find that cheating on the DM's part?

By what I understand the defination of cheating is. All of the examples you mentioned would be cheating to some extent.

 

[Tsillanabor]

Except for the "my job is to kill the players" DMs, I don't believe a DM can really cheat. Sometimes the players are blowing through encounters easier than you expected, so you add more monsters. Sometimes that hill giant zombie hits a bit too hard-so you fudge the damage die downward.

Meta-gaming is a gray area cheating-wise. I tell someone to knock it off, but don't penalize them. Since I customize MOST of what my players face, meta-gaming isn't that useful for them anyway. In fact, in a few instances it has led them astray-heh heh heh.

 

[Faraer]

I'd say that 'cheating' is trying to deceive the DM or otherwise doing things the DM disallows.

 

[Vrecknidj]

If the DM changes things in the game, in order to kill characters, then he's cheating. Lots of DMs will make changes, either to make an encounter harder or easier or better in some other way. That's not cheating.

In general at-home-play, anything a good DM does isn't cheating. At conventions, DMs can cheat by working intentionally against the players. This, to me, doesn't make any sense at all, it completely eliminates the whole purpose of DMing.

Players have all kinds of ways to cheat. In tournaments and at other sanctioned events, there are many ways to do this, from not counting off spells cast, to not subtracting lost hit points, to fudging die rolls, and on and on.

As far as books go, I don't think that a player accessing a Player's Handbook at the table can be cheating. Taking time to look stuff up, to try to guess a spell, is metagaming (often enough), but not cheating per se. Players should not, however, be looking through the DMG, the Monster Manual, or any other unapproved section of any book while at the gaming table.

If a character makes the appropriate Knowledge check, regarding some monster, and the DM is busy, it's okay for the DM to say "read the entry" on the monster. That's fair, so long as the roll was high enough. Otherwise, it's the DM's job to haul out the MM and deliver the appropriate info.

That's my two cents anyway.

Dave

 

[Elephant]

Monkeying with your PC's stats illegally, like applying the Half-Dragon template when creating a higher-level PC and rolling d12s for the 3 level adjustment "levels".

Or "mis-calculating" the ECL of a templated, high-level PC, gaining PrC abilities three levels early.

Or getting a "Natural 20!" on key die rolls anytime the other players can't see the actual number that came up on the die.

 

[Odhanan]

Cheating is a term that is a bit black and white. That's why I won't answer your questions. Rather than speaking about cheating/not cheating, I'd rather speak about things that are not believable in the game environment or unfair to other players (including the DM).

For instance, changing the result of your die is unfair, and makes the whole game mechanics worthless for everyone around the game table. Looking up background information that your character isn't supposed to know and later using it in character potentially challenges the suspension of disbelief of everyone involved and is unfair to other players who wouldn't read/have access to the same kind of information outside of the game. All metagaming examples fit this diagnostic, by the way (which includes all the examples you mentioned).

 

[3catcircus]

I know people can't help metagaming sometimes when they know what a monster can do or what a spell can do when their PC shouldn't know. There's not much you can do about it but ask the player not to tell others and to try to play his PC as if the PC doesn't know.

But what type of things do you concider flat out cheating?

If a player looks up spells in the PHB just to figure out what spell the DM cast?

Nope - that is why it is a Players Handbook.

If a player knows a monster is immune to spells (but his PC doesn't) and he tells the group "I think these are immune to all spells?

Possibly - if he didn't use an in-game mechanic such as a knowledge check.

If a player uses a program on his laptop to calculate ECL vs a monsters CR (he's not supposed to know the CR of the monster) and tells players that this monster is way to hard for them?

Start modifying the monster stats - advancing a few kobolds, giving them PC levels, or a template can put an end to that.

If a player purposely doesn't remind the DM of a rule the DM forgot about just so a PC won't suffer the effects? You suspect this because he coincidently brings it up 2 rounds later that you forgot something.

Write down the rule (e.g. "Don't forget to cleave") and post it on 3x5 notecards on the inside of the DM screen.

Also, is it possible for a DM to cheat? If he's fudging things behind the screen simply to enhance the game, would you still find that cheating on the DM's part?

It depends - is the DM doing it to do a TPK, always does it to one particular player, or consistently does it? Yes. If the DM wants the BBEG's #2 to escape so the PCs can discover the BBEG's lair because they haven't been able to yet? Possibly. If the DM wants to drive home a point about the deadliness or canniness or whatever about the PC's enemies - no.

 

[Oryan77]

Write down the rule (e.g. "Don't forget to cleave") and post it on 3x5 notecards on the inside of the DM screen.

I was thinking more along the lines of general rules knowledge...not monster abilities. For example, you forget the large NPC with 2 attacks has a 10' reach and you take a move action & 1 attack. The player later on says you didn't need to move and you could have taken both attacks.

 

[Barak]

I was thinking more along the lines of general rules knowledge...not monster abilities. For example, you forget the large NPC with 2 attacks has a 10' reach and you take a move action & 1 attack. The player later on says you didn't need to move and you could have taken both attacks.

Well, I wouldn't call that cheating. I mean geez, that's tactical decisions, not forgotten rules. Should players really be expected to help the DM run his NPCs/monsters in a smarter fashion? Actively work at getting their characters killed?