What is cheating?

[Oryan77]

This is the first time in the thread that you've included "their PCs have never encountered" as a restriction on what rules they're prohibited from looking up.
This was the information missing from everything you've said so far.


Prior to this post, your policy read to me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The PHB contains information the characters don't know, therefore the players can't look anything up.

You've since clarified that you don't mind them looking up things the PCs do know.

I thought I was clear in my first post when I said "If a player looks up spells in the PHB just to figure out what spell the DM cast". I guess I was being too broad, but it was clear in my head when I wrote it

What I should have wrote was, "If a player doesn't recognize a spell an NPC cast & he looks up spells in the PHB just to figure out what spell the DM cast?"

 

[Herremann the Wise]

...If the fighter with no ranks in Spellcraft, who's watched his party wizard gradually increase over time from 1 missile to 4, sees an NPC caster throw a three-missile volley, can he figure out that the NPC caster has a lower caster level than their own wizard? Or is that a use of the (trained-only) Spellcraft skill? Can he figure out that when his own wizard was throwing three-missile volleys, he could also cast Fireball, but Enervation was beyond his power? Can he deduce that in all likelihood, the enemy wizard is powerful enough to cast Fireball but not Enervation?

What does it mean for the fighter to have no ranks in spellcraft? How can a player play such a character "*effectively"? Does the wizard announce, "I smite the strength from thee with my Ray of Enfeeblement" when he casts the spell so that others in the party have a running commentary of what magic is actually being flung? If not, I'm not too sure my fighter with no ranks in spellcraft is going to follow the use of magic as well as what you are suggesting. Even with a good intelligence, the perception to realise what is being cast is not really there in my opinion. I think if he was trying to follow what the wizard was doing, he would make a lot of mistakes in doing so. And who is to say that Murgen's fireball looks the same as **Shimrod's anyway? Surely only those who have deeply studied magic would have a high level of precision in such matters.

As for judging who is the best caster, would my fighter really have a clue unless it was dramatically obvious? [zwip versus BBBOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!!!! - which even in itself could be misleading.]

I suppose what I'm saying is, is that I would not appreciate my players looking up a spell that they think one of my NPCs may have cast if their PC has no idea about such things (0 ranks in spellcraft). Whether it be to check up on it or see how "bad" it would be, I would consider this poor play.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

*Effectiveness of roleplay is decidely relative but I could think of no better word.
** Maybe because Shimrod was "apprenticed" to Murgen, their fireballs would be but you know what I mean.

 

[buzz]

Well I assume the reason a player would look up a spell is so he can act on it.

Not an unreasonable assumption, but, in my groups, people also look up things during play simply to increase their rules-fu. Also, at least one of these guys has practically the whole PHB memorized. Am I supposed to ban him from the game?

But the main reason I don't consider it cheating is because I have yet to see referencing the PHB during the game lead to any noticeable advantage for the players. The PHB is the game's rulebook. I'd no sooner ban it than I would ban the HERO core book from my HERO games.

Metagaming is part-and-parcel of D&D (and RPGs in general, IMO). Some groups dial it up, some dial it down, but the simple fact that you are people sitting around a table palying a game is unavoidable.

I'm just curious....since I ask my player's not to look up spells that my NPC's just cast (because they can use spellcraft to gather info about a spell), what bigger issues does my group need to deal with?

For the record, I was using the general "you", not refering to your group in particular.

As for "issues"... banning access to the PHB simply gives me flashbacks to 1e games I played when I was 12. Were I to find myself, at 35, in a group where such a ban existed, I'd pretty much quit immediately. A group with that little trust in place is not a group I'd want to play with.

I also agree with Hypersmurf; when it comes to things characters have encountered before, as well as common D&D-isms, I don't see any reason to deny character knowledge. An orc is an orc.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What I should have wrote was, "If a player doesn't recognize a spell an NPC cast & he looks up spells in the PHB just to figure out what spell the DM cast?"

But if it's a spell the PC should recognise, but the player doesn't, the PHB is where the player finds that information!

-Hyp.

 

[Barak]

Honestly, for the difference it -might- possibly, maybe make, I really don't see any benefit to make a fuss about it anyway. "Oh noes! They figured out my BBEG cast Cone of Cold!" It.. Really matters little.

And I know. There can be some extreme examples of where it can, possibly, maybe make a difference. But it's really rare, and it usually involve spells that are on a character's spelllist, so it rarely matters that much.

 

[Baramay]

To weigh in on the cheating issue. I have seen quite a bit. There are usually action-reaction responses. So figuring out why a player or DM would cheat is the answer to stopping it. Here are some I have seen.

Changing a character's stats- hp, ability scores, etc. Often I have seen this come about because a player feels his character is not getting a chance to shine or has been cheated in some way. A DM who keeps good notes on players abilities will often catch this and can correct the player. Sometimes it is just an honest mistake. Such as adding skill points to a cross class skill as if it is a class skill.

Fudging dice rolls- This one is comical. We have a player who quickly picks up his dice sometimes with the result being 20+. Other times he proudly leaves the die on the table for all to see. This if often for the same reason as changing stats. I believe this started after the player had a 2nd level character suffer an embarrassing loss to a normal badger. It was a topic of jest and I believe he has resorted to this to avoid it from ever happening again. I will state that if a DM is fudging dice rolls he has a much greater chance of his players doing the same.

Not marking off used items- this often happens with gold, potions, arrows, and charged magic items. This one burns me because we have a player who spends money as if he inherited Brewster's millions. He always has more available. The DM is stuck because he does not want to have to keep track of each character's gold, at the same time it is not fair to the other players. Sometimes this is a mistake and sometimes it is laziness.

Poor math that always results in the player's favor- Everyone can make a mistake adding or subtracting but it is very suspicious when it never occurs against the player. This one seems to be a subconscious desire to have one's player succeed. Not everyone can score a 700 on their math SAT. Mistakes happen. Good notes by the DM and an insistance on players being organized will help.

The interpreting player- Our DM often has a player with a Players Handbook look up a spell he (the DM) is not familiar with. The player believes magic has been nerfed in 3.5 and therefore will only read part of the description that benefits him the most. An example of this was when a suggestion was cast and the Players Handbook guy started to read the spell desciption, saw that it was a compulsion and then jumped read the compulsion ability out of the back of the PHB or the MM. Obviously there is a huge difference between dominate person, a vampire's gaze and a suggestion spell. This is a difficult one to correct because the players feels the game designers are trying to "cheat" all mages. The DM just has to be aware of the problem and keep the player focused on the spell in question.

I think some of these occur because the DM is too had and others times it is because the players don't work together to succeed. Often NPCs in the campaign shine over players and have just as good magic items if not better. The DM is often unclear of a players direction in a social situation, so the encounter does not go well. He is perfectly clear with the NPCs. I have seen lazy play often. What I mean by this is not thinking about ramifications of actions and choices. I call it the Epimethius syndrome, not thinking things through. Now playing a character like this if fine. A swashbuckler type or a character with a low wisdom will often fly by the seat of their pants or act impulsively. A player should not take it personally if their character is exiled from the kingdom or similar action. It is all part of being this character and can be great for roleplaying. Fudging often encourages this type of behavior and it often leads to less teamwork and more individual actions. A fly by the seat of your pants attitude will result in many near deaths but they will only enhance the character's reputation. Eventually the character may die from such a devil may care attitude but isn't that the way the character would want to go?

 

[Oryan77]

But if it's a spell the PC should recognise, but the player doesn't, the PHB is where the player finds that information!

-Hyp.

Then we just get into the debate "The player is not his character". I'm not about to go down that road with this discussion because I can tell already that we'll have different opinions on that topic.

Like Barak says, it may not make any difference anyway. And on the flip side, if it won't make a difference, then the player's don't really need to look up spells to figure out what the DM cast

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Cheating, in D&D, is willful deception, intentional omissions and oversights of rules for personal gain, and general dishonesty. It is important to remember, however, that D&D IS NOT A COMPETITIVE GAME (and I despise all efforts to make it so). Just as honesty is then its own reward, cheating becomes its own punishment. It will generally result only in a gaming experience that is inhibited for everyone rather than genuine harm or offense, but moreso for the cheater since all it means is that the culprit cannot enjoy the game unless he "wins". But winning in RPGs doesn't really exist unless you DO run it competitively.

It's not about the destination (or not supposed to be anyway), it's about the journey. It isn't as if you get more points for being the longest lasting, the strongest, the richest, the highest level character at the table at the end of the session, adventure or campaign. You're just supposed to have fun as you GET to the end of the session, adventure, or campaign. As such there isn't likely to be any "cheating" in D&D that will do anything more than annoy me unless it is a chronic and utterly shameless behavior. I can overlook a lot of "no harm, no foul" cheating with little more reaction than a disapproving sarcasm, but ultimately I WON'T play with someone whose enjoyment DERIVES from being dishonest. You DO NOT have to dominate gameplay to enjoy D&D. EVER.

 

[Jim Hague]

Cheating, in D&D, is willful deception, intentional omissions and oversights of rules for personal gain, and general dishonesty.

QFT, with the caveat that it goes for RPGs in general.

 

[bowbe]

Interesting thread. I will say that the last time I actually saw anyone flat out cheating was at my first Gen Con. I was running a level from one of the Rappan Athuk series and glanced over and watched a player actually change his D20 roll with his fingertips.

I didn't bust him on it because I knew it would be an embarrassing situation but I kept note from that point on. It slowed the game down a little bit when I casually asked everyone to wait till their turn to roll their dice. THat solved the problem, avoided humiliating the cheater and set a tone for the rest of the session.

As for meta-gaming.

With experienced players it is something that is of course somewhat unavoidable however thats the great thing about new spell books (Spell Compendium, Eldritch Sorcery, Incarnum ect. ect.) as you can break out spells that players are unfamilair with and wouldn't be able to look up unless they actually rolled a successful Spell-craft and you told them what it was.

Same with new monsters from different sources (MM 2-4, Tome of Horrors 2-3, ect). Adding class levels and so on to the monsters = another very good thing. Always important for DMs to remember (which is often considered DM cheating vs. Using good tactics is playing the monster to its intelligence. A stupid orc is a stupid orc. When they start enticing characters into a kill zone with longspears and and crossbowmen in an enfilade... they had better have a very charismatic, intelligent and highly trained commander on the field.

As far as any form of cheating and obvious metagaming goes, it involves a moral disconnect from the concept of "fair play", meaning something just never sunk in during good ol' early childhood development and social integration.

In my experience, I have seen far less cheating in table top RPGs than I do in computer games where the concept of cheating is built into the game by its designers. I don't know if there is a solid correlation between this cheat code ethos and the constant news items about business leaders cheating their employees, people getting caught trying to cheat the system, college kids and kids in middle and high school cheating on exams but the fact is the cheat is on! Cheating in online video games is one of the things that ultimately drove me away from such games and back to RPGs.

Thankfully most Tabletop RPGs are by their very nature a social setting and people who try to cheat or consistantly metagame are eventually exposed and often expelled from that social circle, soon finding no-one else to play with.

When I was a once upon a time a player and moderator with Chat Based D20 RPGs however, it seemed the opposite was true. The biggest cheaters always seemed to get themselves made moderators and game masters. This worked well for them as they gained more playing time than anyone else. It also worked out so that they could in turn supply their own characters with the best equipment, most experience points and greatest accumulation of wealth. Typically it involved a conspiracy of several Game Masters padding one anothers character sheets to accomodate their intrinsically broken characters. Evidently their desire for a powerful virtual identity superceded their sense of fair play. I found this quite sad actually because ultimately it meant that these people were very weak or lonely individuals that were just seeking some form of attention and super power that was missing from their real lives. For them the game wasn't RPGs, it was cheating and seeing how far they could go to get away with it, and that is no fun for the rest of us.

Thanks for the thread.

Case