• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

What is good for D&D as a game vs. what is good for the company that makes it

I was thinking about this thread and wondering how we got on this tangent and I realized that it was something of a misunderstanding. I said to Gregory Oatmeal in response to his comments about playing with gamers who don't buy books:

Me said:
Are players angry because they keep having to buy new books, or do they never buy the books at all? Because, I'm thinking that if they play but never buy the books, they don't get a vote on which edition is being played at the table, nor do they get a say in when or if we go to a new edition.

When I said, "if we go to a new edition" I didn't actually mean the table. I meant the edition as a whole. People who stop buying RPG books don't get a say in when the company producing the current edition moves into a new edition. I misspoke about voting at the table. My bad. Wasn't really the point I was going towards.

Hope that clears things up.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Thanks for the clarification hussar. I would still say their opinions are taken into account. In some game groups only the gm buys the books, but you still need the players to help keep the game alive. So people who dont buy books can still help drive book sales.
 

That's the "casual gamer" argument which, to be honest, I don't think I buy anymore. The idea that if enough people play your game, then you will sell enough to stay in business, even if you're only selling to a small fraction of your total audience.

I think that's exactly how we get into edition churn honestly. While even casual gamers might pick up the player's guide to a given game, every book beyond those first core books is a losing proposition - your audience just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Until, of course, you reboot your game and everyone buys the books again.

OTOH, if you have a product that you can just keep selling at steady numbers, such as a perscription subcription (in whatever form your audience wants) then you can have a much more stable business platform. Once you have a stable business platform, you don't need new editions.

That whole "D&D should be like Monopoly" thread that died recently seemed to miss that point. For any RPG to have a stable platform, it needs steady sales. Book trade doesn't seem to get that done. Hardly surprising considering the upheaval that the publishing industry in general is going through. So, other options have to be looked at.

I think Paizo and WOTC have the right idea - subscription services backed up by very strong organized play options. It worked for White Wolf (well, organized play anyway) in the 90's and it's doing well for Paizo currently. WOTC seems to be pretty healthy as well.

We'll just have to wait and see.
 

I will admit that I am not sure about the 'casual gamer' either - I am going to use my Tweens 'n' Teens Pathfinder game as an example here. Six players, age 12-15 (soon to be 12-16, then just a Teens game). All but one are second generation gamers.

All six kids have the Core book - though it took over a year for this to become the case. All had access to the books, two of the players shared their parents' books.

Four have both Advanced Players Guide and Ultimate Magic. Two others are sharing their parents' copies of each. All have access to the books.

One has Ultimate Combat, and two share their parents' copies. So, half the group has access.

For what it is worth, the two players that share their parents' books are also the most into the game - one plays a paladin, and is hoping to get the Ultimate Combat Book in a few weeks for his birthday.

I would have said that this group would count as 'casual', but at between $50 and $40 SRP for the books I would have to say that they are anything but.

Half either run their own games, play in each others games, or are planning to run games.

One has a younger brother that plays 4e. He was willing to play Pathfinder but only because it wasn't 3e or 3.5. (Don't ask, that doesn't make any sense to me.)

The kids are willing to either wait or save up for a month or three before making a purchase, but they are either getting or receiving the books.

I think that the money is in the folks that want more than the core book - while the $50 Core is a big investment, if the player buys two of the $40 supplements then they have more than doubled that investment, and, I think, are that much more likely to buy a third, fourth, or fifth book.

I also think that having major (expensive) releases separated by a few months is better than trying to release a hardcover every month.

The adventures, Adventure Paths, and subsidiary expansions (Hobblegobbles of Deepwood Vale: a Player's Guide or what have you) are either a subscription model or an incidental purchase, almost an impulse buy.

I suspect that the model is similar between Pathfinder and 4e, in that regard at the least.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* At this afternoon's game the party was out hunting a giant. After some time spent searching they heard a deep voice going 'Fee Fi Fo Fum'. Most of the players started laughing, but the paladin's response was a word that paladin shouldn't say and him telling the spell casters to get ready and start buffing with every spell they could. 'This isn't just a giant. This thing is legend!'

What can I say? He was right - a hill giant with two templates out of Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary....
 
Last edited:

That's the "casual gamer" argument which, to be honest, I don't think I buy anymore. The idea that if enough people play your game, then you will sell enough to stay in business, even if you're only selling to a small fraction of your total audience.

I think that's exactly how we get into edition churn honestly. While even casual gamers might pick up the player's guide to a given game, every book beyond those first core books is a losing proposition - your audience just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Until, of course, you reboot your game and everyone buys the books again.

I think we simply disagree on this point. I am not talking about casual gamers, but regular gamers who happen not to buy the books themselve (using their GMs books, free online books, or books available at their gamestore). In my opinion your book sales will drop if the people not buying the books, but playing, are unhappy with the game, because the GMs and hardcore players will have fewer people to play with and will themselves shift to other games. I also think as a general rule you need as many active campaigns of your game as possible to help drive sales (whether all the players in those campaigns buy books).
 

Until, of course, you reboot your game and everyone buys the books again.

OTOH, if you have a product that you can just keep selling at steady numbers, such as a perscription subcription (in whatever form your audience wants) then you can have a much more stable business platform. Once you have a stable business platform, you don't need new editions.

That whole "D&D should be like Monopoly" thread that died recently seemed to miss that point
Did you miss the title of the thread "What is good for D&D as a game vs. what is good for the company that makes it"? And did you even read the first post in the monopoly thread? Because it was all about getting people together to play the game, not about profit. Ultimately I don't really care what happens to WOTC and Paizo if I can readily get people on the same page to play a game.

Someone posted a really smart thread a while back about how D&D could move from a business-driven game into a community-controlled open-source game. WOTC can try to churn out a bunch of editions but I just don't see it being sustainable. I just don't see people continuing to buy something they can get for free on the internet.
 

Book trade doesn't seem to get that done.

At least, not for RPGs. Business-wise, the Monopoly model only works if you have low production costs, and a market so huge that maintaining it at saturation still leaves you in a profitable place.
 

Did you miss the title of the thread "What is good for D&D as a game vs. what is good for the company that makes it"? And did you even read the first post in the monopoly thread? Because it was all about getting people together to play the game, not about profit.
Occupy D&D!
GregoryOatmeal said:
Ultimately I don't really care what happens to WOTC and Paizo if I can readily get people on the same page to play a game.
Not to beat a dead horse too much, or derail or whatever, but why is it that you've got this crusader mentality about 3.5e then, and wanting it back in print? I feel the same way... i.e., I don't really care what happens to WOTC and Paiso if I can readily get people to play the game I want to run. So, as a consequence of that, I don't really care what happens to WotC or Paizo, or what they do. But you really do seem to care. What am I missing? Perhaps its the obvious that you're having trouble finding gamers, but I thought I picked up from some earlier posts of yours that that wasn't the case.
GregoryOatmeal said:
Someone posted a really smart thread a while back about how D&D could move from a business-driven game into a community-controlled open-source game. WOTC can try to churn out a bunch of editions but I just don't see it being sustainable. I just don't see people continuing to buy something they can get for free on the internet.
Why hasn't this already happened, then? You can get the SRD for free on the internet today.

In fact, arguably, the whole OSR movement is this very concept in motion right now, although they focus on emulating older games like AD&D and BD&D or OD&D. If there's a similar movement for 3e/3.5/d20, I'm not aware of it.
 

I think that's exactly how we get into edition churn honestly. While even casual gamers might pick up the player's guide to a given game, every book beyond those first core books is a losing proposition - your audience just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Until, of course, you reboot your game and everyone buys the books again.
That model of "edition churn" falls apart when your existing customer base refuses to buy the new books because they have an existing product they are satisfied with and won't buy a new edition just because it is new and different. I think we've seen the first show of that with the 3.5e/PF vs. 4e Schism. I think a 5e coming out soon will risk the same thing happening.

OTOH, if you have a product that you can just keep selling at steady numbers, such as a perscription subcription (in whatever form your audience wants) then you can have a much more stable business platform. Once you have a stable business platform, you don't need new editions.

That whole "D&D should be like Monopoly" thread that died recently seemed to miss that point. For any RPG to have a stable platform, it needs steady sales. Book trade doesn't seem to get that done. Hardly surprising considering the upheaval that the publishing industry in general is going through. So, other options have to be looked at.
The problem is, that as a game, D&D doesn't need steady sales, it needs it as a profitable product. Hence the whole concept of the thread.

You can play for many years on just the 3 core books of virtually any edition. If all I had was the core 3 for 3.5e, I could run games on that for the rest of my life, everything else is optional. . .and realizing that is WotC's nightmare because it kills sales.

I've seen a number of gaming groups that still play or played for many years niche product books that only had one or two books released for them, with no more support ever, or that play what was once a well supported game but hasn't had books released in many years. The need for "support" in the form of new supplements and web information is illusory, it is just that: supplementary.

In fact, I've noticed a pattern over many games, not just D&D, that as more and more products come out the complexity of the game rises, the difficulty of GM'ing rises, and the barrier to entry for a new player rises. If/when a new edition comes along, then there is the tough choice to effectively lose the hundreds (or even thousands) spent on buying books, or move to the new edition along with "everybody else", although you don't need to buy it to keep playing as long as your players are satisfied with the system as-is and want to keep on playing as if nothing changed.

It's this train of thought which lead me to create the thread, the realization that D&D as a game does not need a constant stream of new supplementary books every month, and new editions every few years, to be playable and enjoyable. It only needs those things for business reasons as the product of a publicly traded company that has to be accountable to stockholders for record profits every quarter, not for the quality of the game being playable and fun.

I first realized it circa 2005, when I realized that I was buying all the various D&D 3.x products, but I'd never get close to using them all, I'd buy a new $40 book to read through it for stuff to use in a game, but I'd probably never use more than one or two feats or spells from it. . .and I couldn't afford to keep doing it. As I've watched D&D and the gaming industry as a whole progress in the 6 years since then, I've continued to hold this philosophy the more things I've seen happen in the gaming world.
 

I think Paizo and WOTC have the right idea - subscription services backed up by very strong organized play options. It worked for White Wolf (well, organized play anyway) in the 90's and it's doing well for Paizo currently. WOTC seems to be pretty healthy as well.

I think no one has really nailed the subscription/online model yet. Ideally, the digital version would be experimental, fast, vast, etc. It would take advantage of the extensive options available in the digital mediums to allow the users to customize (via keywords and more).

Then when certain combinations were shown to be popular and run well, the owners would put out print products supporting that niche. Production values rule here, as well as very careful playtesting.

If there can be some "print on demand" options splitting the difference, so much the better.

Some people want new stuff and more options, and they want it yesterday. Some people want intelligently selected quality, even if they need to wait a year or more to get it. You don't get much better raw material than, "the best of X, playtested by the market." Publish that, and then also the whole "subscription stuff goes away' argument vanishes. Who cares if the dregs go away, eventually, if we have the best stuff in beautiful books?
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top