The Traveler
Explorer
No, I'm saying you're perhaps taking offense at something that isn't what you think it is.Emiricol said:
What is HackMaster???
- Thread starter Griswold
- Start date
RangerWickett
Legend
There's just one thing I can really contribute. As a quick note, I'm cool with everyone gaming. Feel the love, roll dice, have fun. Don't ruin anyone else's fun. 
A few people have brought up the question as to why WotC doesn't release more small products, like single adventures and such, or little tiny products for all the dozens of niche groups of players (gnome barbarians, or just hundreds of random adventures, etc.). The problem is that doing so is a waste of their resources.
Thanks in some ways to Hasbro, and also to WotC execs being kinda smart, you can now buy core rulebooks and core adventures and core supplements in your average book store, and occasionally even in video game and computer stores. You might also see some of the big name, mass market books, like the Scarred Lands stuff from SSS. All of it is pretty straightforward, easy to get into, and flexible for a lot of different types of players. New players can go to these stores and get what they need, and be set for months of gaming.
Then the people who are already fans can go to game-specific hobby stores and pick up some of the wonderful adventures and supplements that can be harvested from the D20 crop. If Thoughts Could Kill probably is a little too specific for WotC to produce on its own, since the effort of marketing and distribute it might cost more than what profit they'd actually make from sales. But for Malhavoc, a small press company, the few sales they do get are much better. They're only having to pay a half dozen employees, while WotC has to support hundreds.
It costs a lot to print and distribute enough copies of an adventure or rulebook so that you can have one or two on the shelf in every Barnes & Noble, Books-a-Million, B. Dalton, and Waldenbooks. It costs significantly less to get one or two copies into all the hobby stores in the nation. Big chain bookstores outnumber the hobby stores probably 10 to 1 (or more). And, since devoted gamers aren't the main patrons of chain bookstores, it's a waste of materials to try to sell second-tier products there.
It makes much more sense, both for WotC itself, and for the gaming industry as a whole, to have less critical products be produced by those companies that can't afford the costs of releasing in all the big stores in the country. Sure, you can find a copy of Wild Spellcraft at my local Waldenbooks, but it's more likely to get bought by someone at Oxford Comics than it would be at a chain bookstore.
WotC is smart in their business strategy, and though it might make them seem a little less personal and not quite as "soul-ful" as small press companies, what they're doing is, overall, probably for the best of the gaming hobby. They've made a game that is easy to play, and easy to make your own (read Sagiro's storyhour and dare to tell me that there's no soul in 3e!). And most importantly they've spread the work around, making it easier to cover all the things we gamers want, while simultaneously giving chances to people who otherwise might never be successful in the gaming industry.
Thus to WotC I say, "Great job. We can worry about getting rid of the whole arcane-divine thing later."
A few people have brought up the question as to why WotC doesn't release more small products, like single adventures and such, or little tiny products for all the dozens of niche groups of players (gnome barbarians, or just hundreds of random adventures, etc.). The problem is that doing so is a waste of their resources.
Thanks in some ways to Hasbro, and also to WotC execs being kinda smart, you can now buy core rulebooks and core adventures and core supplements in your average book store, and occasionally even in video game and computer stores. You might also see some of the big name, mass market books, like the Scarred Lands stuff from SSS. All of it is pretty straightforward, easy to get into, and flexible for a lot of different types of players. New players can go to these stores and get what they need, and be set for months of gaming.
Then the people who are already fans can go to game-specific hobby stores and pick up some of the wonderful adventures and supplements that can be harvested from the D20 crop. If Thoughts Could Kill probably is a little too specific for WotC to produce on its own, since the effort of marketing and distribute it might cost more than what profit they'd actually make from sales. But for Malhavoc, a small press company, the few sales they do get are much better. They're only having to pay a half dozen employees, while WotC has to support hundreds.
It costs a lot to print and distribute enough copies of an adventure or rulebook so that you can have one or two on the shelf in every Barnes & Noble, Books-a-Million, B. Dalton, and Waldenbooks. It costs significantly less to get one or two copies into all the hobby stores in the nation. Big chain bookstores outnumber the hobby stores probably 10 to 1 (or more). And, since devoted gamers aren't the main patrons of chain bookstores, it's a waste of materials to try to sell second-tier products there.
It makes much more sense, both for WotC itself, and for the gaming industry as a whole, to have less critical products be produced by those companies that can't afford the costs of releasing in all the big stores in the country. Sure, you can find a copy of Wild Spellcraft at my local Waldenbooks, but it's more likely to get bought by someone at Oxford Comics than it would be at a chain bookstore.
WotC is smart in their business strategy, and though it might make them seem a little less personal and not quite as "soul-ful" as small press companies, what they're doing is, overall, probably for the best of the gaming hobby. They've made a game that is easy to play, and easy to make your own (read Sagiro's storyhour and dare to tell me that there's no soul in 3e!). And most importantly they've spread the work around, making it easier to cover all the things we gamers want, while simultaneously giving chances to people who otherwise might never be successful in the gaming industry.
Thus to WotC I say, "Great job. We can worry about getting rid of the whole arcane-divine thing later.
"
The Traveler
Explorer
Well, there's kind of an adventure-glut, eh? Might be why WotC only does mega-adventures and "Adventure Path" modules.
kengar
First Post
I'll chime in for no good reason with my experiences with gaming and D&D over the last 20+ yrs. I first played the original box set, then got into AD&D along with Top Secret, Gamma World & Star Frontiers. Left TSR for a while for Runequest & Stormbringer. Took a quick look years later at 2nd edition and ran away! It was -IMHO- a MESS. Stayed away from D&D for years after that and stuck with GURPS. Then, with 3e (which I actually checked out because of the then-upcoming NWN video game) I took another look at D&D and loved it. I now play 3e once a week and have been pretty much continuously since the game came out. The d20 system is good because it WORKS. It's not perfect, but it works. Most of the things I would change are "legacy" parts from the older editions (AC & HP, for instance). If it weren't for the ease of learning d20, most of my group wouldn't be playing at all now. I'm even working up a COC campaign for them. They're willing to play a different game because they already know the mechanics from playing 3e.
Does this mean I think HM or 2e or any other system is "unplayable"? No, of course not. But 3e is a good solid product and -in my mind- raised the bar for game systems and gaming publishers in terms of quality.
Does this mean I think HM or 2e or any other system is "unplayable"? No, of course not. But 3e is a good solid product and -in my mind- raised the bar for game systems and gaming publishers in terms of quality.
rounser said:
Rounser, I'm not even sure what we disagree about at this point, but I suppose I'd better keep arguing just to be on the safe side.
1. Hackmaster is a nostalgia game. I have no doubt that it is a fully playable game, but it is also one big inside joke. It is stone dice with irony.
2. I do not doubt the existence of "feel", but I think that in this case a lot of us old-school gamers just feel an enormous swelling of love and affection when we see the complex and broken rules that we grew up with.
If it is some quality other than the old-school rules which generates this feeling of nostalgia...then I kind of wish Hackmaster was a fully-3rd Edition-compliant d20 book, so that whatever elusive Gygaxian spirit it captures could be shared with a wider audience.
3. What I can't understand is this attitude in the nerd community that Sulu should have his own show, Hal Jordan must always be the Green Lantern, and it's not really D&D if you're playing a dwarf paladin whose AC goes up as he adds armor.
I take that back --- I do understand that attitude. A lot of the time, I share that attitude. What I don't understand is when folks get it in their heads that hardcore old-school fanboys somehow represent the One True Path and that anything which deviates from the Path is "not really _______".
4. For example:
"My point is simply this; How much more would have WOTC's sales been had they put out a product that tried to include some of us old fans."
Well, they had DiTerzelli draw the planetouched. Gygax is writing in Dragon again AND producing new D&D stuff. Everyone has a different idea of what would constitute a "faithful" 3rd edition product, and there will always be someone bellyaching about Wolverine being too tall or organic webshooters.
What WotC has done is opened up the door so that you and your buddies can make as may grognardian Against the Giants on the Keep in the Borderlands products as you choose. And if that ain't enough, they have given the go-ahead for Hackmaster, so you can make sure that your hobby remains sufficiently unpopular to maintain its purity.
5.
"It just seems to be a bad idea to alienate part of the customer base that has been buying the brand for years since they are the ones that will stay with it for even more years to come"
D&D has always evolved --- With each step in the evolution, there's been someone left behind. Alienating part of the old customer base probably comes with every attempt to increase the overall customer base. And with each generation of D&D, there comes a handful of fans who will, in fact, be with it for years to come.
From what you've written below, I think you managed to miss it.
It's a parody of (A)D&D and a tribute to it, not a joke. To be a joke implies that "Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality". Given that the game is designed to run non-trivial campaigns in and that you probably know this, I suspect that your term is purposefully chosen to imply the converse. HM is a parody - "A literary or artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of an author or a work for comic effect or ridicule", and a tribute - "A gift, payment, declaration, or other acknowledgment of gratitude, respect, or admiration."
I wasn't talking about the "hard" rules, which you seem obsessed with. I was referring to the rules which contain fluff, such as spells, classes, monsters, magic items, style and ideas - not THACO. They are where the heart of the D&D game is - in a whole bunch of easily latched onto archetypes, cool spells, cool monsters, and cool magic items...and "default D&D setting" assumptions, such as dungeons and theives guilds and demihumans. As argued by Monte Cook in the past, some rules do nothing to hurt D&D's appeal (such as abstract hit points), but the appeal lies primarily in the D&D genre, the feel of the game (slaying things and stealing treasure), and an abundance of stuff to play around with.
If you think these fluff-included components of the game don't matter, try ripping them all out of 3E and see what you're left with: bare d20 rules without a genre, not D&D.
Nice straw man, and one that has nothing to do with my argument. I notice that you're back to THACO again - you're really obsessed with the hard rules side of D&D, neh? Almost as if you think it's the only part that matters.
Where did I say this? Nowhere. You're tilting at windmills and making assumptions about my stance. It is you who was (and is) on the attack here, with your trollish post that assumes that the only reason to play Hackmaster is for purposes of nostalgia, and that the only thing that matters about D&D is slick rules. My argument is that hit resolution isn't even the tip of the iceberg of what makes D&D D&D, and despite your claims that you do, you show no sign of understanding that.
I didn't write that, and don't agree with it. WotC have based their publishing policy of big hardcovers on 1E anyway, with (for example) the Manual of the Planes and Deities and Demigods. The devil is in the details though, and the style is definitely different from 1E. Better? Depends on what you're after. Is Hackmaster's style different to that of 3E? Definitely. Is that good? Again, depends on what you're after.
Ah, we're in unrelated tangent land again. I take it you're into superheroes, then.
I don't like old modules, much - most of them, quite frankly, sucked. You have it right in that as far as the popularity thing goes, that's not what Hackmaster's designed to be. You still don't have a point, except that you're still assuming that I'm attacking 3E's right to exist. You're very predictable, you know - assuming that I am teh enemy whereas I'm really sitting on the fence. You attempt to paint me as extremist fanboy, and have begun to shadow box against straw men of your own devising because your argument is failing. I have news for you buster - given that I like both systems for what I consider their strong points, and recognise their weaknesses (and have done so on this thread), who's likely to be more objective? The likes of yourself, with the frothing 3E fanboy, trying-to-be-funny immature troll which was your debut into this thread?
You're still quoting people who aren't me in an attempt to to refute me?
Progression is indeed usually the only way to move forward and improve the state of the art, but sometimes all that is abandoned is not inferior to that which it is replaced with.
In the case of Hackmaster and 3E, I believe that 3E fulfils a role of utility - it doesn't impose many assumptions about your play style, and attempts to accomodate the majority of D&D players and newcomers. This is a good thing. Some of the details clash with my sense of aesthetics, and have changed the tone of the game for me in a direction I don't like (the flavour content and cool factor of the selection of monsters in the MM when compared to past editions, for instance), and some of the rules seem to get in the way (the amount of time spent on statting NPCs compared to past editions, for instance) but for the most part, with the other monster books arriving and computer stat generators existing, it's all good.
That doesn't stop me from recognising Hackmaster's strengths (cool new concepts, spells, classes, monsters, magic items, ideas, rules which reinforce roleplaying, and a fresh and irreverent attitude to both rules and module writing mixed with a faux oldschool style) and it's weaknesses (level limits, overhead of character creation, THAC0, overhead of other rules such as alignment tracking). It also lends itself to a specific, somewhat whimsical style of play and a certain sense of fun or humour (aided by knowledge of in-jokes), and therefore doesn't cater for D&D gamers who don't want that play style....although there's a good deal of stuff to pillage for such games regardless, especially spells and monsters.
I'd prefer 1E AD&D or oD&D to either of them for certain purposes as well - such as when DMing off-the-cuff. When doing so, I'd be tempted to use monsters from the Hacklopedias, spells from the HM PHB and certain sections of the HM GMG if running a game in a specific style, because they're fun and they happen to be compatible.
In short, I think I recognise the stuff HM does better than 3E, and vice versa. Maybe it doesn't for you, but at least please stop pretending that all who like the game are fanboys blinded by nostalgia. There's so much more to D&D than how you determine "to hit".
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Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
rounser said:
This is something I've been trying to say. I agree 100%!
rounser...
Your argument is inconsistent and generally fuzzy. You say that others are obsessed by hard rules, but you make it clear that the 3rd edition mechanics some how violate your fluff? Let me make your original argument clear given that you seem to have forgotten it; you want the rules to enforce specific DND genre conventions. Nice; i disagree with that sentiment, but that is not the point. You are infact rules obsessed. DND is abounding in fluff; just because the rules are now streamlined and balanced for tactical play does not mittigate that. Talk about limits in imagination, you want the rules to SPELL OUT your game for you beyond the broad genre elements. You are in fact focused on the rules, you just seem not to be very sensitive as to whether they are playable or balanced rules. Funny.
With player/dm input, the current rules provide both the game and rp. The prior editions didn't have the former and rigidly framed the latter. Guess which package i'm going with?
Your argument is inconsistent and generally fuzzy. You say that others are obsessed by hard rules, but you make it clear that the 3rd edition mechanics some how violate your fluff? Let me make your original argument clear given that you seem to have forgotten it; you want the rules to enforce specific DND genre conventions. Nice; i disagree with that sentiment, but that is not the point. You are infact rules obsessed. DND is abounding in fluff; just because the rules are now streamlined and balanced for tactical play does not mittigate that. Talk about limits in imagination, you want the rules to SPELL OUT your game for you beyond the broad genre elements. You are in fact focused on the rules, you just seem not to be very sensitive as to whether they are playable or balanced rules. Funny.
With player/dm input, the current rules provide both the game and rp. The prior editions didn't have the former and rigidly framed the latter. Guess which package i'm going with?
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Bugbear
First Post
Henry said:
So basically, by that definition Hackmaster is like the movie Howard the Duck...
(I say this because I think I am only one of the ten souls in the universe who liked the Howard the Duck movie. I understand his empathy for a product that is better defined as "cult status" than "mass appeal.")
I liked Howard the Duck.
I have nothing else to add
WOW!
My thanks to you all for clueing me into what HM is all about I've found the discussion very enlightening.
Couple of thoughts,
I think this may be part of the parody that is HM. I was looking at my 2nd ed. and what's left of my 1st ed books, and there were alot of them. I suppose it's not as bad as the HM moster books but, well.. it was bad.
heh I've come to think that BoVD is really just a selection of random musings from the Kenzer d20 boards and RPG.net
Gris.
My thanks to you all for clueing me into what HM is all about I've found the discussion very enlightening.
Couple of thoughts,
I think this may be part of the parody that is HM. I was looking at my 2nd ed. and what's left of my 1st ed books, and there were alot of them. I suppose it's not as bad as the HM moster books but, well.. it was bad.
heh I've come to think that BoVD is really just a selection of random musings from the Kenzer d20 boards and RPG.net
Gris.
