What is HackMaster???

[Dinkeldog]

My point is simply this; How much more would have WOTC's sales been had they put out a product that tried to include some of us old fans.

They did. Some != All. There will always be those who hate something because it's new. I have a friend from college who still won't listen to any music that was recorded after 1986.

Also, how many of the new players are actually going to stay with the product for years like some of the rest of us?

How many left during those years? For years I had no game because 1e/2e were abandoned.

It just seems to be a bad idea to alienate part of the customer base that has been buying the brand for years since they are the ones that will stay with it for even more years to come.

You know, honestly, I don't think they could do anything about it. Some people want to be alienated. I remember wars fought on e-mail lists over the differences between 1e, 1.5e, 2e, and 2.5e.

TSR and then WotC never forced fast edition changes. When 2e came out, it was really time for it. First edition had become bloated after Unearthed Arcana and then the Wilderness and Dungeoneer's Explorers Guides. You keep compatibility where possible and ultimately accept the incompatible parts that come as the system evolves. The end part of 2e was worse with the Player's Option and DM's Option books.

WOTC had a dedicated customer base that was buying the product. It might not have been as big as they wanted but it did exist. Now they have split that group into two parts, one that will buy the new stuff and one that won't. The important question is are the new players that are just now getting into the game going to be as die-hard as the old crew that WOTC has lost? Only time will tell.

Those that have chosen to be alienated can continue with the ESD's for 2e that WotC has up.

Personally I think that sales will drop off in another year or two as fads change and WOTC will have to consider selling or coming out with yet another system change to sell more Core Rule Books since their business plan seems to be to concentrate on Core Books and very little else RPG related.

I disagree. You don't consider the campaign settings (Cthulhu, Wheel of Time) that Wizards put out last year, nor the campaign setting search competition early this summer.

People associated with WOTC keep telling us that D&D sales have been great and it is the other stuff that is dragging it down prompting the layoffs. If that were true why layoff people that are working on RPG stuff that is supposedly selling great?

No comment. Would require information I don't have.

If D&D sales figures are so great then I say to WOTC, prove it. You are part of a publicly held company so what harm will it do to release the D&D specific sales info?

Harm? It provides information to competitors about WotC's business.

 

[bloodymage]

OK. I didn't post this to start a war over which is the "better" system. I'm simply trying to give Griswold a little more information than what he's gotten so far and I thought this described how the difference in the "feel" of the two systems might be. I think it's a great system, but I'm just an old grognard. Enjoy.

*sigh* I guess no read this part, or took it seriously. Sorry, Griswold. I just couldn't find anything purely descriptive on the KenzerCo boards.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

If D&D sales figures are so great then I say to WOTC, prove it. You are part of a publicly held company so what harm will it do to release the D&D specific sales info?

Get a hold of Hasbro's annual report. They are freely available either online or at a library. This has already come up. D&D has been doing great - the trouble is, even at D&D's tip-top best it's dwarfed by anything else Hasbro makes. D&D is bigger than it's ever been, but that's simply not big enough for Hasbro.

Look, you can doom-and-gloom all you want, but I doubt very much 3e is going to somehow fade away like a fad. This is an old, tired argument already - it's been bandied about since 3e was released.

As for all these old-school players being alienated - I just don't see it. Not out here in the real world, at least. The internet is great at amplifying complaints, and making them seem more than they are - in other words, making mountains out of molehills or creating tempests in teapots. Of course, then those who are making such claims say - "well, this isn't just the internet I'm talking about." OK, that's fine, but like I said - I don't see it out here in the real world, this phenomenon that old-schoolers are alienated en masse by 3e. How about any of you other old-schoolers out there? If you're lurking out there, de-lurk for once and counter what I consider to be largely a myth - that old-schoolers are driven away from 3e. If you know of other old-school gamers in real life who are now 3e fans, pipe up. The reason I'm putting out such a call is that this anecdotal evidence I see about old-school gamers eschewing 3e is, I suspect, like just about anything else on the internet - those with axes to grind will be the most vocal, and seem more numerous than they really are.

Y'know, I get the feeling we'll still be seeing the "3e is a fad" assertion 5 years from now...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

*sigh* I guess no read this part, or took it seriously. Sorry, Griswold. I just couldn't find anything purely descriptive on the KenzerCo boards.

I think you yourself strayed from your own premise, but that's OK - it's good to discuss things, even if they're off-topic for the thread.

I'm an "old grognard" too, and I've consistently tried to espouse the virtues of HackMaster here.

The feel - if you want the "feel" of HackMaster, read Knights of the Dinner Table. It's 1e at its best, with a great sense of humor. It combines nostalgia with a healthy dose of playable new mechanics. It mixes the feeling of playing D&D for the first time with the knowing wink of old veterans in the background. It's just a damned fine game.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

By the way, don't focus so much on WotC. They've painted themselves into a corner, and now seem to be of the opinion that they can somehow be really profitable just releasing a hardcover every month or two. Perhaps they should actually try to become a real d20 publisher themselves, and try a variety of releases. But I'm no business major, just a consumer.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

My point is simply this; How much more would have WOTC's sales been had they put out a product that tried to include some of us old fans.

Well, first, I'm an old fan, and I feel included by 3e.

Second, as Dinkeldog so astutely assesses it, there are those who simply refuse to change no matter what, and complain no matter what is changed, whether it be good or bad. I doubt there is any way for anyone to release a new edition of D&D that won't "alienate" some segment of the fan base. So why try to cater to a small segment? The d20 movement has as a side effect the possibility of catering to all these niches, and licensing AD&D to Kenzer for the HackMaster game caters to exactly the niche you want catered to. It sounds like a win-win situation to me. Besides the enormous amount of 1e and 2e material out there, HackMaster's material is easily usable for 1e and 2e. Plus, Kenzer loves HackMaster, and can lavish the attention on it that it deserves. That, to me, is what is most important.

Also, how many of the new players are actually going to stay with the product for years like some of the rest of us?

I don't know. Let's meet here in 20 years and discuss it. Until the time has passed, nobody can say for sure. There's no point in speculating on it. Perhaps the sun will go nova next week; then, of course, 3e will not have stood the test of time.

It just seems to be a bad idea to alienate part of the customer base that has been buying the brand for years since they are the ones that will stay with it for even more years to come. .

I doubt they alienated that many. Sales indicate that they didn't.

WOTC had a dedicated customer base that was buying the product. It might not have been as big as they wanted but it did exist. Now they have split that group into two parts, one that will buy the new stuff and one that won't. The important question is are the new players that are just now getting into the game going to be as die-hard as the old crew that WOTC has lost? Only time will tell.

Well, sure. As I said above. But the splitting of the fan base probably is very lopsided - with those who switched to 3e in the majority. It just doesn't stand to reason that D&D generated so many new fans; a lot of them have to be old fans.

Personally I think that sales will drop off in another year or two as fads change and WOTC will have to consider selling or coming out with yet another system change to sell more Core Rule Books since their business plan seems to be to concentrate on Core Books and very little else RPG related.

You're ignoring the d20 companies. They seem to be increasingly entrenched in the RPG landscape. So, if someone releases a new edition of D&D, they have to compete with a lot of companies releasing material for 3e (basically). And, no, before it's mentioned by someone, they cannot revoke the OGL, or take back anything released as OGC - this has been discussed at length over the past couple of years, by lawyers (heck, Clark Peterson of Necromancer games is a lawyer), even on these boards. Once it's OGC, it's OGC until the sun goes nova next week, or the end of time, whichever comes first

 

[Emiricol]

Old gamer here. Left at the start of 2E. Came back for 3E. Yep, I feel alientated.

Watch, I bet the "Real Scottsman" argument comes out real quick here

 

[JPL]

Let's skip ahead thirty posts...

I've been playing D&D for longer that any of you posers. When I started playing, there were ACTUAL DRAGONS which we killed with our swords. Then, when all the dragons were dead, we killed imaginary dragons using our imagination. I want to make this clear: I HAVE BEEN PLAYING D&D FOR OVER 600 YEARS SINCE IT WAS JUST A SERIES OF CLAY TABLETS AND THE DICE WERE MADE OF STONE, AND ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN PLAYING FOR LESS THAN 600 YEARS CANNOT APPRECIATE THE TRUE ESSENCE OF THE GAME AND NEED NOT OFFER THEIR OPINION ON THIS THREAD.

Why can't Hasbro understand that its core audience --- thirty years old fat bearded men --- liked it better when fighters just plain couldn't climb a wall, and when elves could not be druids, and when a single class dwarf cleric could never take a level of fighter even if he lived for another 300 years?

Why can't Hasbro understand that the purity of the gaming experience came from having a separate mechanic for each possible action and lots of charts and thirty kinds of polearms?

What WotC is afraid to admit is that they, as a business, are really just interested in making money, instead of going bankrupt with integrity like TSR. Thank God that for an initial outlay of only $500, I can play Hackmaster and feel like I'm fourteen again, even though I hated high school.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Heh. You're my hero.

 

[rounser]

Why can't Hasbro understand that the purity of the gaming experience came from having a separate mechanic for each possible action and lots of charts and thirty kinds of polearms?

Because, as we all know, realism and slick universal resolution mechanics are by far the most important part of D&D, not cool concepts, cool spells, cool monsters and rules which reinforce roleplaying and a sense of fun in the game as opposed to reminding players of computer games.

Yes, it was the rules which made D&D popular, not the genre, the feel, the spirit of the game, no sirree...