What is HackMaster???

[Tsyr]

and I just cannot understand the 2nd edition nostalgia except as a joke, which Hackmaster is.

Bzzzzzt, wrong.

Hackmaster is a PARODY, yes. It's not a JOKE, though. As the Kenzer Co folk stated many times, they could have slammed out a joke version of Hackmaster many times. They weren't going to release Hackmaster though unless it was a viable, complete game, that once you get past the parody aspect, is fun, playable, and enjoyable. Which is what they did.

You also have to understand that a lot of the "attitude" over at the HM forums is in jest. It's the way people in the comic book that inspired HM act.

 

[hong]

Obviously some of you have a hard time distinguishing sarcasm also.

Yeah.

 

[Breakdaddy]

I agree with Hung and Greylong here. A lot of these guys are blowing hot air in jest or just using copious quantities of sarcasm. In the end, both systems have their slavering fanboys, and really, that isn't hurting anyone IME.

 

[Greylond]

I dunno - I left 2e and never looked back. Didn't come back till 3e. I know lots of people like that. We think 3e *is* what it *should* have been.

But hey, just see Col. H's post.

3rd Edition has changed so much that it no longer resembles old style D&D.

When 2nd Edition was out at least you could use any published material with 1st Edition rules with very little conversion.

Now with 3rd Edition out you have to do so much work converting stuff you might as well write your own stuff. Which is why I don't buy anything by WOTC anymore.

Hackmaster stuff is pretty easy to use with 1st or 2nd Edition rules too.

There are lots of people who use 1st Edition or 2nd Edition or some mix between the two. WOTC had decided to abandon us so we'll go spend our money elsewhere.


Greylond

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Yea, I did.

Hackmaster is a great game all on its own merits.

But you can't deny that Hackmaster wouldn't have the fanbase it has if WOTC had put out a 3rd Edition that was more like AD&D.

Who's denying it? Conversely, you can't deny that 3e's fanbase and sales completely dwarf that of HackMaster, which indicates that 3e not only drew away fans of older editions, but created new fans also.

Now, some (such as some HM fans) would say that is because WotC somehow forced 1e and 2e fans to switch. I've seen such rationales made - no new material for 1e and 2e being the main gripe. I have to say that's just not logical. There is so much material out there for 1e and 2e, you could spend a lifetime playing those editions and not run out of useful material. The books are out there still, and pdf's of most of them are available for download. So, those who want to play 1e and 2e can do so, quite contentedly.

Plus, if so many were disaffected by the advent of 3e, why isn't HackMaster beating out 3e in sales? Because HackMaster appeals to a very specific audience. An often very vocal, but still specific, audience. This isn't a knock at HM or its fans at all. Sales and numbers of fans don't equate to relative quality. That is, a game can be great even if only 2 people play it. So HackMaster fans should shelve the inferiority complex, dump the pointless "HM is better than..." or "HM is the game 3e shoulda been" mentaility, and play their game. They may find that a lot of 3e fans love HM too - if you've been to these boards for any length of time, you'll know that I've been cheerleading HM from the beginning (or nearly so), and have tried to clear up the various misconceptions about it.

 

[Tsyr]

They may find that a lot of 3e fans love HM too - if you've been to these boards for any length of time, you'll know that I've been cheerleading HM from the beginning (or nearly so), and have tried to clear up the various misconceptions about it.

Same here... never really have been able to get past the misconception that hackmaster is just a joke, not a serious game. *sigh*

 

[ColonelHardisson]

3rd Edition has changed so much that it no longer resembles old style D&D.

When 2nd Edition was out at least you could use any published material with 1st Edition rules with very little conversion.

Now with 3rd Edition out you have to do so much work converting stuff you might as well write your own stuff. Which is why I don't buy anything by WOTC anymore.

Hackmaster stuff is pretty easy to use with 1st or 2nd Edition rules too.

There are lots of people who use 1st Edition or 2nd Edition or some mix between the two. WOTC had decided to abandon us so we'll go spend our money elsewhere.


Greylond

Back when 3e was announced, I was pissed. I swore I'd never buy any of the new edition's material. Still, even if I had actually maintained that feeling, some of the stuff 3e did was easily usable in a 1e or 2e game - such as armor class, which did nothing but take the old armor system, flip it over, and eliminate the need for THACO. Now, Armor Class equals the number needed to hit. So, while 3e does change a number of things, it also provides ways to streamline 1e and 2e, and make them a bit easier to play also.

 

[Greylond]

My point is simply this; How much more would have WOTC's sales been had they put out a product that tried to include some of us old fans.

Also, how many of the new players are actually going to stay with the product for years like some of the rest of us?

It just seems to be a bad idea to alienate part of the customer base that has been buying the brand for years since they are the ones that will stay with it for even more years to come.

WOTC had a dedicated customer base that was buying the product. It might not have been as big as they wanted but it did exist. Now they have split that group into two parts, one that will buy the new stuff and one that won't. The important question is are the new players that are just now getting into the game going to be as die-hard as the old crew that WOTC has lost? Only time will tell.

Personally I think that sales will drop off in another year or two as fads change and WOTC will have to consider selling or coming out with yet another system change to sell more Core Rule Books since their business plan seems to be to concentrate on Core Books and very little else RPG related.

People associated with WOTC keep telling us that D&D sales have been great and it is the other stuff that is dragging it down prompting the layoffs. If that were true why layoff people that are working on RPG stuff that is supposedly selling great?

If D&D sales figures are so great then I say to WOTC, prove it. You are part of a publicly held company so what harm will it do to release the D&D specific sales info?



Greylond

 

[Tsyr]

My point is simply this; How much more would have WOTC's sales been had they put out a product that tried to include some of us old fans.

WotC's sales would have probably been less, frankly. See my next point.

Also, how many of the new players are actually going to stay with the product for years like some of the rest of us?

Probably as many will stay as will not, just like the original. The "rest of us" were new at one time too. And that number probably just about makes up for the people who abandoned DnD back before 3E for various reasons, the system being one of them. 3E brought back a lot of those people. Had 3E been hackmaster, those people wouldn't have come back.

I love Hackmaster. But lets be honest. It's 1E/2E, with most of the problems that go along with it. At it's core, it's a 20 year old game, one of the first to come out, before millions of ideas were out there to pick and choose from. And it does show. For those of who still like 1E/2E, It's a great game. For those people who DIDN'T, Hackmaster would be no more attractive than the 2E was. 3E, on the other hand...

 

[Emiricol]

Sounds to me like there's some good, solid alternatives for gamers of all flavors, which can't be anything but a very good thing.