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What is my alignment?
- Thread starter megamania
- Start date
A lawful person can also be defined as someone with a strict code, so if the cleric in question had a code he was following that demanded he kill everything evil he had, he'd be lawful imo. However, if he simply goes out and detects anything he's suspicious of- then kills it if it's evil (apparently out of thin air for the target)- he's following the wind of random chaos towards his goals.
Also, I'd have a hard time justifying this person as Good... if we go by strict DND standards, with 3 of the 9 alignments being Evil, we can figure that this cleric would, if successful, kill about one in every three people. If we take a more moderate stance that moral neutrality is twice as common as good and evil, then the cleric is still killing about one in every eight people/living beings. As far as I'm concerned it's insanely hard to rationalize that wanton slaughter is good.
Also, I'd have a hard time justifying this person as Good... if we go by strict DND standards, with 3 of the 9 alignments being Evil, we can figure that this cleric would, if successful, kill about one in every three people. If we take a more moderate stance that moral neutrality is twice as common as good and evil, then the cleric is still killing about one in every eight people/living beings. As far as I'm concerned it's insanely hard to rationalize that wanton slaughter is good.
Maerdwyn
First Post
megamania said:
IMC at least, it would be CE.
It would also result in a rather short career - A local villain would, after hearing of your reputation, begin using you as an unwitting assassin through the use of her Mask Alignment spell.
Mask Alignment
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Asn 3, Clr 3, Brd 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature or object
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Caster chooses an alignment. Target creature detects as this alignment for the duration of the spell.
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Lackadaisical
First Post
LN.
Lawful doesn't imply that you always follow a nation's laws so that fact that murder is illegal would be irrelevant. Lawful implies that there is a rhyme and reason behind your actions. If stealing is permissable by your code while paying for items isn't allowed then regardless of how much you steal you are still lawful. If the cleric's code is to kill evil whenever he spots it, and he does so, he is still lawful. The inquisition did likewise and it wouldn't be defined as chaotic.
If he was LG then he would kill evil because it benefitted the public. This cleric seems to kill evil simple because it is evil though. What if an NE accountant was amassing money by undercutting the thieves' guild's accounts and then spending the money on enlarging his estate? The accountant is creating jobs that will allow the poor to get off the streets and survive the winter. Killing the accountant would hurt the lower classes if a person loyal to the guild took his place. An LG character wouldn't act until he knew that killing the person would benefit society before he attacked. Of course, an LG person wouldn't commit murder regardless.
An LE character would though. Unfortunately, the cleric's motives don't seem to be entirely selfish. He isn't getting paid by his church for every evil head he brings in is he? He's killing them because they are evil. A motive that isn't exactly selfish but also isn't always benefitting society.
It's a neutral act from a person who is LN. Lawful and acting largely without regard for personal gain or society's gain.
Lawful doesn't imply that you always follow a nation's laws so that fact that murder is illegal would be irrelevant. Lawful implies that there is a rhyme and reason behind your actions. If stealing is permissable by your code while paying for items isn't allowed then regardless of how much you steal you are still lawful. If the cleric's code is to kill evil whenever he spots it, and he does so, he is still lawful. The inquisition did likewise and it wouldn't be defined as chaotic.
If he was LG then he would kill evil because it benefitted the public. This cleric seems to kill evil simple because it is evil though. What if an NE accountant was amassing money by undercutting the thieves' guild's accounts and then spending the money on enlarging his estate? The accountant is creating jobs that will allow the poor to get off the streets and survive the winter. Killing the accountant would hurt the lower classes if a person loyal to the guild took his place. An LG character wouldn't act until he knew that killing the person would benefit society before he attacked. Of course, an LG person wouldn't commit murder regardless.
An LE character would though. Unfortunately, the cleric's motives don't seem to be entirely selfish. He isn't getting paid by his church for every evil head he brings in is he? He's killing them because they are evil. A motive that isn't exactly selfish but also isn't always benefitting society.
It's a neutral act from a person who is LN. Lawful and acting largely without regard for personal gain or society's gain.
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Drawmack
First Post
I think the code is pushing the envelope a little bit. I mean we could say that I am a LG paladin but my code clearly states that I should live as a free spirit. So my code that makes me lawful states I must be chaotic.
If he is flagrantly killing evil then he must belong to a good church. Reasonably speaking a good aligned church is not going to have a code that states kill evil on site because good believes in the chance for redemption that he has just taken away. There is an off shot that the church could believe that death is redemption but then what about the person who detects evil but has just had an appifany and will be a champion of good? There is no logical way for a good aligned church to have a creedo that states you must kill anything evil on sight.
If he is flagrantly killing evil then he must belong to a good church. Reasonably speaking a good aligned church is not going to have a code that states kill evil on site because good believes in the chance for redemption that he has just taken away. There is an off shot that the church could believe that death is redemption but then what about the person who detects evil but has just had an appifany and will be a champion of good? There is no logical way for a good aligned church to have a creedo that states you must kill anything evil on sight.
I'll take the "You're of the alignment opposite of the one you wish to destroy" route and stick you in the Neutral Good category. Still, if you're a cleric, you should uphold the principles of your deity as much as your alignment. If you're a Paladin, you must defeat evil in accordance to your strict code of behavior (ie. Lawful alignment).
I like Maerdwyn's idea of some villain exploiting your modus operandi as a puppet. Is your DM reading this thread? Nyahahahbooha.
Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^
I like Maerdwyn's idea of some villain exploiting your modus operandi as a puppet. Is your DM reading this thread? Nyahahahbooha.
Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Maybe I'm wrong here. It's been known to happen before. But the original post strikes me as a transparent attempt to "trap" people into arguing that the actions described (those of a paladin, as some see it) aren't lawful good.
Thing is, they very well could be lawful good, and acceptable for a paladin (which, again, seems the real intent of the original post.)
Lawful has nothing to do with laws, people. It has to do with adherence to a set code of behavior and the belief that a regimented society is preferable to anarchy. The D&D development team would have done us all a service if they'd changed the term from "Lawful" to "Order." Heck, the counter to Chaos Hammer is Order's Wrath.
That being said, being a paladin has little to nothing to do with "respecting the laws of the land." The paladin respects that the land has laws, because he believes that the order of a society with strict laws will produce the greatest good. But he does not have to follow every law. He does not have to turn over every prisoner to "local authorities."
Ordered means the paladin has a code he follows. He does things the same way in the same situation. He follows his beliefs unwaveringly. If his code demands that he kill every evil creature he comes across, then he does so. If it demands that he whack every villian he comes across with a wet fish, he does that every time. There is no case-by-case, there is no second-guessing. A particular cause has a particular effect, every time.
A Chaotic character does what seems appropriate when the situation comes up. He has no set rules, follows no guidelines. One day, setting the prisoners free might seem the "good" thing to do. Another day, killing the prisoners where they stand might seem the "good" thing to do. He is free to choose each day, each instant, what he feels is the good and proper thing to do. And he does.
Oh, and to stay on-topic in case I was wrong about the original post: The cleric in question could very much be lawful good. He has an ordered behavior, and the only things he is killing are evil.
Thing is, they very well could be lawful good, and acceptable for a paladin (which, again, seems the real intent of the original post.)
Lawful has nothing to do with laws, people. It has to do with adherence to a set code of behavior and the belief that a regimented society is preferable to anarchy. The D&D development team would have done us all a service if they'd changed the term from "Lawful" to "Order." Heck, the counter to Chaos Hammer is Order's Wrath.
That being said, being a paladin has little to nothing to do with "respecting the laws of the land." The paladin respects that the land has laws, because he believes that the order of a society with strict laws will produce the greatest good. But he does not have to follow every law. He does not have to turn over every prisoner to "local authorities."
Ordered means the paladin has a code he follows. He does things the same way in the same situation. He follows his beliefs unwaveringly. If his code demands that he kill every evil creature he comes across, then he does so. If it demands that he whack every villian he comes across with a wet fish, he does that every time. There is no case-by-case, there is no second-guessing. A particular cause has a particular effect, every time.
A Chaotic character does what seems appropriate when the situation comes up. He has no set rules, follows no guidelines. One day, setting the prisoners free might seem the "good" thing to do. Another day, killing the prisoners where they stand might seem the "good" thing to do. He is free to choose each day, each instant, what he feels is the good and proper thing to do. And he does.
Oh, and to stay on-topic in case I was wrong about the original post: The cleric in question could very much be lawful good. He has an ordered behavior, and the only things he is killing are evil.
Maerdwyn
First Post
****
From the SRD:
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, and a lack of adaptability.
"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.
****
Lawfulness does include respect for legitimate authority. One who violates the legitimate law of the land in pursuit of good, when other options for pursuing good are available, is IMHO, NG. One who does so consistently, and withou regard for legitimate authority would be CG.
The SRD:
****
Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
****
Goodness includes a respect for life, and a respect for sentients that is, IMHO, incompatible with slaying such a sentient merely on the sayso of a first level spell that gives no specifics of a beings transgressions.
One who consistently kills without regard for sentient life - especially if the motivation is not altruisitic, but, rather, adherence to orders or a church's code, would IMHO, be evil.
There are degrees of evil, and not all of them merit a death sentence.
If the cleric in question would strike down the child who detects as evil because he consistently and maliciously steals items of low value from a local merchant, I would not call him lawful good.
From the SRD:
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.
"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, and a lack of adaptability.
"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.
****
Lawfulness does include respect for legitimate authority. One who violates the legitimate law of the land in pursuit of good, when other options for pursuing good are available, is IMHO, NG. One who does so consistently, and withou regard for legitimate authority would be CG.
The SRD:
****
Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
****
Goodness includes a respect for life, and a respect for sentients that is, IMHO, incompatible with slaying such a sentient merely on the sayso of a first level spell that gives no specifics of a beings transgressions.
One who consistently kills without regard for sentient life - especially if the motivation is not altruisitic, but, rather, adherence to orders or a church's code, would IMHO, be evil.
There are degrees of evil, and not all of them merit a death sentence.
If the cleric in question would strike down the child who detects as evil because he consistently and maliciously steals items of low value from a local merchant, I would not call him lawful good.
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