Pathfinder 1E What is Pathfinder doing about multi-classing?

[Wulf Ratbane]

So getting +2 to certain saves with every dip is right?
So having certain combination come up with a BAB of +3 at 10th level is right?
Having your caster progression stunted dramatically by taking a non-prc bonus spell casting class?

These are bugs not features.

Those are bugs unrelated to dipping. They're math/mechanics.

I misunderstood your complaint as a philosophical disagreement with dipping.

 

[Sadrik]

I never understood the idea that a player should be rewarded for staying single-classed. The multiclassing system in 3ed was supposed to allow for an infinite number of combinations so a player could create the character concept they wanted.

Sure, there may be some combinations that are more attractive than others but I've never seen any combo that "breaks" the game. And trust me, I've done my share of trying.

Multiclassed spellcasters do need to be fixed, but any "fix" should be in accord with pro-multiclassing.

I totally agree with this. I have always felt the classes where just a package of abilities. Contrary to you, I have seen characters that do break the game.

I really like the 3e multi-classing system (about a billion times better than 4e) it gives an almost limitless number of possibilities. However, it does have several problems. Primarily saves, BAB and spell casting progression could use the fix. In addition to spell casting progression there are a lot of other progressions (familiars, animal companions, unarmed strike, sneak attack etc.) that could do with a general rule to keep them competitive as a character levels up.

Caster level and class feature progression fix
I personally like the rule that your caster level is equal to the spell casting class level plus 1/2 of all your other levels up to a max of double. This would also cover all of the scalable class features such as animal companions.

Saves fix
your saves are 1/2 your overall character level. Classes give a non-stackable +2 bonus in certain saves (Fighter FORT, Rogue REF, Wizard WILL, Cleric FORT and WILL etc.)
It might be nice to give everyone a +3 total rather than have some with a +4 and others with a +2 and only a few with +6.

BAB fix
Full gets BAB +4/level
3/4 gets BAB +3/level
1/2 gets BAB +2/level
Add all your BABs up and divide by 4. This is simpler than adding fractions.

Put it all together
So, if you had a fighter 2/cleric 8/wizard 4
BAB +10 ((8+24+8)/4=10)
Base FORT would be +9 (14/2=7 fighter gives +2 cleric gives +2 -> don't stack)
Base REF would be +7 (14/2=7)
Base WILL would be +9 (14/2=7 cleric gives +2, wizard gives +2 -> don't stack)
Wizard Caster level would be 8 (4+(10/2)=9 but can only get a max of double original level so 8)
Cleric Caster level would be 11 (8+(6/2)=11)

Anyway which class features which scale by half your other class levels would have to be written into the class features themselves. Some attempt at dealing with this would make the game better as a whole.

 

[Sadrik]

Those are bugs unrelated to dipping. They're math/mechanics.

I misunderstood your complaint as a philosophical disagreement with dipping.

Oh, I like the dipping method (it can get a little out of hand though). That is just what I call it as opposed to the 1e and 2e method. 3e is more like the old dual class method.

 

[Sadrik]

Gotta love the 5 minute double post lag.

 

[Phlebas]

I never understood the idea that a player should be rewarded for staying single-classed. The multiclassing system in 3ed was supposed to allow for an infinite number of combinations so a player could create the character concept they wanted.

Sure, there may be some combinations that are more attractive than others but I've never seen any combo that "breaks" the game. And trust me, I've done my share of trying.

Multiclassed spellcasters do need to be fixed, but any "fix" should be in accord with pro-multiclassing.

Its been said before on many threads that there is no reason not to multi-class at higher levels, so PFRP adds some nice capstone features for high level single class characters. it also rewards favoured classes (and gives two of them per race) which makes dipping a conscious choice for the character rather than an opimisation route

for what its worth i think fractional saves / bab would make sense, + feats to resolve caster level discrepancies would help - eg practised spellcaster. As for the rest of it, i don't think major changes are required.

 

[Papa-DRB]

Lots of *really* good stuff

Sadrik, if you haven't, please post this over on the Paizo boards, it looks very interesting.

-- david
Papa.DRB

 

[GlassJaw]

Its been said before on many threads that there is no reason not to multi-class at higher levels, so PFRP adds some nice capstone features for high level single class characters. it also rewards favoured classes (and gives two of them per race) which makes dipping a conscious choice for the character rather than an opimisation route.

The problem I have with the Pathfinder implementation is that the "capstones" are so far beyond any other ability already granted to the class. They are borderline epic.

They smack of "oh, we need to come up with this really outlandish ability because we want to reward the player that stays single-classed" rather than redesigning the class so it gets something at every level, level 20 included, where the ability gained at each level isn't any more or less "uber" than any other.

 

[Sadrik]

Sadrik, if you haven't, please post this over on the Paizo boards, it looks very interesting.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Can you put it on there for me?

Thanks.

 

[Angellis_ater]

One of the ideas I had was that one could go the middle road between 3.5 and 4E and have everyone choose a role (Warrior: High BAB, 2+Int skills - Expert: Medium Bab, 4+ Int skills, Adept: Low BAB, 6+Int skills) and everyone chooses one good Save.

 

[Storm Raven]

So getting +2 to certain saves with every dip is right?

I fixed this in my house rules by having saves be a function of character, not of class.

So having certain combination come up with a BAB of +3 at 10th level is right?

Using fractional BAB fixes this for the most part.

Having your caster progression stunted dramatically by taking a non-prc bonus spell casting class?

I reduced the options to three base classes (fighter, rogue, and wizard) and emulating most class features with feat progressions. This problem seems to not crop up in that environment.