D&D 5E What is Quality?

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
No, it's not just easy to say.

It's also, by definition, when the recession began.

Again. Hindsight is 2020
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
except it is...
"how warm is it?"
"65 degrees"

again a true answer yet incomplete and without context can be misleading.

no it isn't... because the objective temperature is at best a partial answer and again can be used to mislead... it is only 1 thing "the number on the made up scale we measure of the heat on the thermostat."

that is 100% false. the temperature is the air temperature . You are more then capable of being warm in 78 degrees dry and cold in 78 degrees wet.
the humidity in the air also effects the way the temperature effects living beings... I find it VERY hard to believe that in your life no one has every said so.

then you admit I am right?

from people saying that the 100% objective and only answer needed to "is it warm out" is a number with no context.

and that is context information you have just shared now (never been to the west cost)

generally here in NE we expect a full answer because our weather varies... I would assume that if someone from NE came to where you live they would be VERY put out by only being given a number answer... it is just only partial information

then you KNOW that about the person... see, like i said people should (when they know each other for a length of time) be able to know. so when you are cold can you give her a run down of what she would most likely feel?

an example with my sister would be "It's warm today I'm going in shorts you probably want a jacket though"

and again this still is all context... that additional information that allows the numbers to MEAN an answer that wont mislead.
You seem dead set on arguing that we are saying things that we aren't saying, so I'm going to step back now.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Again. Hindsight is 2020

I did not realize that it was a controversial statement to say that the Great Recession began when ... it began ... using the defined and accepted terms that everyone uses and is easily available at numerous websites and, as far as I know, is not contradicted. And ... I just provided you actual citations.

Then again, I also did not think that people would engage in lengthy debates arguing that things like math and temperature do not provide objective standards because someone might be asking you a question like, "How many eggs do you put in a angel food cake," and you reply, "The boomerang nebula, at 1 kelvin, is colder than the surface of the sun, at 5.8 kK."
 

You seem dead set on arguing that we are saying things that we aren't saying, so I'm going to step back now.

Then again, I also did not think that people would engage in lengthy debates arguing that things like math and temperature do not provide objective standards because someone might be asking you a question like, "How many eggs do you put in a angel food cake," and you reply, "The boomerang nebula, at 1 kelvin, is colder than the surface of the sun, at 5.8 kK."
I find it funny that I am being accused of misrepresenting this...
If today's temperature is 98 degrees, and yesterday it was 80 degrees, then today it is HOTTER than yesterday. The temperature is, quite literally, a fact that is dictated to you. You can't argue with it.
weather it is HOTTER is not JUST a measurement of the current reading on a device (heck just move one into the shade or into the sun and watch it change).

changing location, and other factors (humidity, and weather it is raining, and I believe elevation) changes what those numbers mean.

so you can say today this device reads 98 and in the same location yesterday it read 80 so the temperature is higher today. and be 100% factually true...

but if yesterday it was in direct sun light today it is in a shade, yesterday was breezy and raining and today is clear and humid... that answer well still being 100% factually true can still be misleading.

edit: so again the part I argue with is "You can't argue it would be wrong to say" yeah... you can argue it is a fact you stated that is misleading with out context... or is down right useless to the conversation.
 
Last edited:

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I did not realize that it was a controversial statement to say that the Great Recession began when ... it began ... using the defined and accepted terms that everyone uses and is easily available at numerous websites and, as far as I know, is not contradicted. And ... I just provided you actual citations.
The definition you cite for recession is one solely built upon hindsight. The market didn’t actually drop more than 20% from its Nov 2007 max until Nov 2008.

Actual news that a recession was occurring (not potentially going to occur) didn’t happen until last quarter of 2008.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I find it funny that I am being accused of misrepresenting this...

weather it is HOTTER is not JUST a measurement of the current reading on a device (heck just move one into the shade or into the sun and watch it change).

changing location, and other factors (humidity, and weather it is raining, and I believe elevation) changes what those numbers mean.

But it doesn't change ... what those numbers are. Temperature is what it is. Humidity ... is what it is. Precipitation can also be measured.

What that means to you will vary. Some people like rain, some people like humidity, and some people ... don't. And guess what? YOU CAN DISCUSS WHAT THOSE NUMBERS ACTUALLY MEAN TO YOU. But no one (other than maybe you?) would actually say, "Hey, guess what, I know everyone measured the temperature ... but I'm going to disagree with it." Just like some people like mountains and some people like beaches.

giphy.gif
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
The definition you cite for recession is one solely built upon hindsight. The market didn’t actually drop more than 20% from its Nov 2007 max until Nov 2008.

Actual news that a recession was occurring (not potentially going to occur) didn’t happen until last quarter of 2008.

So ... I used the correct definition, had the correct citations, and had the correct timeframe, and you are still arguing.

Good to know.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Mod Note:
Folks,

This thread seems to have devolved into arguments about the recession, and the meaning of temperature, rather than gaming.

These also seem to have become entrenched arguments, in which people will refuse to back down.

You all know the drill - when your need to win becomes too great, a moderator shows up, and.. you lose.

So, cut it out. Make it constructive, make it relevant, or stop. Thanks.
 


<All things 4e>
Thank you, between this and Snarf's spoilered rundown, it is a very good summation. I'll try to look up the financial things referenced for a numeric analysis, but otherwise I consider this as answering my questions to my satisfaction.
I disagree. I think we can get much more specific, while still remaining 100% objective. For example, D&D is a cooperative game. (You can choose to play it competitively, but that's never been what it was designed for.) Being a cooperative multiplayer roleplaying game induces a variety of expectations and limitations that are significantly more specific than "is it literally at all possible for someone to use it" and "is it literally at all possible for someone to enjoy it."
Of course it does. However, we don't all agree on what is necessary for a cooperative game, nor the relative importance of these things in the game's quality. Therefore, a quality measure based on these expectations and limitations will be debatable, ending in differing people having differing ratings for the games based on which qualities of quality they consider relevant or most important.
When we make the only standard of quality something that is literally impossible to fail, the conversation becomes completely pointless. That's why it's unacceptable. You have reduced the conversation about "quality" to a triviality; this not only accomplishes nothing, it is actively caustic to actually productive, interesting discussion.
Calling someone else's position caustic does not meet my civility threshold. We don't need to continue if to do so would be in this manner. Regardless, I have not done this at all. I have drawn a line demarcating where I think universally-agreed-upon measures stop, nothing more. Honestly, I don't know why this is a problem, nor why it would intersect negatively with productive, interesting discussion. There's much more to be discussed when things aren't clear-cut than when they are (undoubtedly a component to why there is so much more discussion surrounding movies and art and the best hamburger than there are about jet engine performance or bridge structural soundness, and the like).
Again, I completely disagree. There are several functions beyond the "cooperative TTRPG" example I gave above that are useful for honing in on the design purpose of D&D specifically. Among them: "roleplaying" is clearly a factor, and that tells us things about what the rules are supposed to do; the "three pillars" (combat, exploration, socialization) are explicit design purposes, literally the designers saying what D&D is about (whether or not players use them is their prerogative, but the designers have been very clear that that's what they made 5e "for," and I have no reason to think this is not true of any other WotC edition); the need to be open to homebrewing, and yet also somewhat standardized so people can do things like "organized play" and "discuss the game on forums"; the overall thematic focus of the game being fantasy as opposed to sci-fi, horror, romance, or other themes; etc.
These are great examples, and they are worthy of discussion. Highly worthy. At no point have I implied that the components of a game are not important facets of discussion, nor that they do not contribute to a games' quality. Individual facets of a game are the places where things come closest to universal-consensus measures and judgements occurring. For example, 5e's stealth and vision rules -- these certainly rise to the point where one could find near universal consensus that they are not only bad, but diminish the quality of the game --although almost immediately the question of 'how much' becomes contentious. You can even make with/without comparisons like (see any number of write-ups about how Monopoly as-written is better than Monopoly with the common 'cash on free parking' variant).

It is once you start combining those facets into a cohesive measure of game quality that things get subjective, arguable, and potentially contentious. One person can say Bunions & Baggins is a better game because it accounts for hobbit foot damage while another person says that's a pointless mechanic modelling parts of the game for which no one really want a codified mechanic and clearly Hinfolk & Heroics is a better game for focusing on the action aspects, and neither can point to a specific unequivocal law declaring them right.

For that reason (and tying this back to the OP's thread-premising question), I think quality measures look less like ordinal numbers or the like and more like movie reviews -- potentially a numeric or 'thumbs up/down' score, but really being inseparable from a paragraph- to thesis-sized argument for the position, including some caveats and declared assumptions* with which the reader may or may not agree.
*example: I think it was Roger Ebert who was a little more agreeable to the notion that you didn't go to 70s-90s horror movies if you weren't expecting some hokey acting and unconvincing special effects and thus didn't hold those against such a movie as much as Siskel. This could be a parallel to a 'Well, gp=xp is a bad mechanic, because it only incentivizes treasure-centric dungeon crawls' 'But that's an expectation of the game.' - style disagreements.

The thread premise was how do we measure quality, and my answer is (roughly) 'with much complexity, and the final measurement output (coming from significant discussion and disagreement) still ending up looking like an argument or position synopsis rather than a simple number.

<also redacted tangent>
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top