What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

[Micah Sweet]

Because it forces emotion and feeling on the PC that the PC does not have. If I determine that my PC isn't at all intimidated by the axe wielding orc, there is nothing at all to make it harder(-2) for him. The -2 can only happen if on some level my PC is intimidated/afraid of the orc.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that I can determine whatever I want for my PC(actions, thoughts and emotions), and then force penalties on my PC for failing social checks. Those penalties = dictating my PC's actions(because the penalty my put something out of reach and I have to do something else), thoughts, and emotions.

Is that response good enough for you @Bill Zebub ?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes. What's the problem? I the player have that control. My PC does not have that control. He's subject to my decisions for him. If I decide he's intimidated, he is and he didn't control that. If I decide he is not intimidated, he isn't and he did not control that.

Nobody is arguing for the PC to have the control.

No. I am arguing that there are situations where neither the character nor the Player plausibly have complete control over everything around them. Influence is felt and IMO should be represented.

 

[Maxperson]

Is that response good enough for you @Bill Zebub ?

He can't see my posts.

 

[Micah Sweet]

He can't see my posts.

Too bad. Sorry @Bill Zebub . The poster who most exemplifies what I'm talking about is invisible to you.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No. I am arguing that there are situations where neither the character nor the Player plausibly have complete control over everything around them. Influence is felt and IMO should be represented.

But such influence is subjective. Like we can perhaps imagine some hypothetical world leader, who to some people seems like a charismatic cult leader, every word of whom they obey, and to some people they seem like an incoherently rambling demented clown. Yet it is the same person and the people are listening the same speeches. And I think how you react to this person tells a lot about what sort of person you are, and it would feel very inappropriate to let that determined by a dice roll rather than the player.

 

[Bill Zebub]

So you want to have control over something for your character you just admitted you don't have control over for yourself in real life?

Versus ceding control to the opinions of the other people at the table? Definitely.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Too bad. Sorry @Bill Zebub . The poster who most exemplifies what I'm talking about is invisible to you.

I'm pretty sure that poster put a lot of effort into arguing the other side a few years ago. Went through the trouble of finding every creature in the Monster Manual that had a bonus for Persuasion, Intimidation, or Deception, as proof that they were intended to be "used on PCs".

 

[hawkeyefan]

This varies by game of course (as does everything else in this thread) but I think I can be specific about what I object to: when the game has rules that force characters to react in certain ways (fear, charm, lie detection, etc.) but then the GM also thinks that in other situations the characters "should" act in similar ways. That's the line that I don't like to see crossed.

Take sleep. I have fallen asleep during movies, at concerts (the symphony sort, not the rock sort), in lecture halls, while I'm supposed to be keeping an eye on the baby, etc. Clearly dull content can put me to sleep, with no magic required. And while roleplaying I might respond to a GM description of a scene by having my character fall asleep, especially if there were something about that character that would suggest they would be especially bored by the context. But I would object to the GM requiring me to roll to stay awake in response to an NPC trying to bore me to sleep, simply because "in real life really boring things sometimes put people to sleep."

I don’t know of many games where this would be something that happens. I’m thinking back on my years of RPGs trying to think of an example of someone rolling to stay awake due to boredom. I can’t think of any. The few examples I can think of where a character was battling sleep was more a matter of absolute exhaustion.

I also am struggling to recall examples from play or fiction where someone was intentionally trying to bore someone to sleep. It seems a rather outlandish tactic.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I don’t know of many games where this would be something that happens. I’m thinking back on my years of RPGs trying to think of an example of someone rolling to stay awake due to boredom. I can’t think of any. The few examples I can think of where a character was battling sleep was more a matter of absolute exhaustion.

I also am struggling to recall examples from play or fiction where someone was intentionally trying to bore someone to sleep. It seems a rather outlandish tactic.

No, I can't think of the falling asleep one either. But I think that's illustrative: why is persuasion or intimidation or anger different from sleep?

 

[hawkeyefan]

No, I can't think of the falling asleep one either. But I think that's illustrative: why is persuasion or intimidation or anger different from sleep?

Because people are routinely angered, intimidated, or persuaded by others? Like, it happens all the time.

But again… looking at this through the lens of D&D… is very limiting. There are better ways that other RPGs handle this stuff than the imagined way people are proposing it must work with D&D as a starting point.