D&D 5E What is the Astral Sea according to 5e?

[Yaarel]

In my campaigns, I have been using the following skills:

Religion = astral (including wildspace, sea, dominions of celestial, fiendish, etcetera)
Arcane = ethereal (including fey and shadow)
Nature = material (but also elemental planes)

 

[Guest 7034872]

I think matter that enters the Astral Sea is still matter. A person is only made of thoughts if they Astral Project themselves. The Githyanki are still flesh and blood creatures.

I understand the astral plane to be strictly immaterial.

It is impossible for matter to exist in the astral plane, in the same way that it is impossible for matter to exist in a dream. To dream about matter is a purely symbolic thought construct.

When designing my new campaign, I fought with myself for two months over just these questions and finally concluded, "It's inconsistent no matter what I choose." 5e has within it many echoes of past editions on top of which sit the writers' more explicit ideas. Even as far back as 2e, though, it looks to me like the concept of the Astral Plane is ultimately self-inconsistent. On one hand, just as Yaarel says, it's often and clearly written that the plane is a domain of thoughts, concepts, and dreams (though in some versions there's also a distinct Plane of Dreams, so the whole account gets weird almost right away), not of physical goo. Great; that makes the whole plane really funky and fascinating and I think I know what to do with it.

But on the other hand, MonsterEnvy is equally correct that the githyanki live in this plane as they have done since AD&D (along with Mind Flayers and several other nasty aberrations). The githyanki aren't quite natives to this plane, but they've certainly gone native. They even keep red dragons in their city of Tu’narath, make raiding parties that enter the Prime Material Plane, and set about slaughtering or enslaving anyone they can. Seems awfully physical and not at all virtual.

How to square this apparent circle? I failed to. For me, it got to a point where I had to choose between the first interpretation or the second and either option brought me smack up against all sorts of problems I couldn't easily fix. So what I did was I dropped the Astral Plane adventure I had planned and just use it as a transitive plane through which my players eventually will traipse.

 

[bloodtide]

So....is the Astral Sea THE Astral Plane?

Is Spelljamming now Planejamming?

So every time you leave a world on the Prime Plane, you plane shift to the Astral Plane, and then plane shift back to the Prime to land on another world?

Or is 5E just renaming The Phlogiston The Astral sea, for no reason?

 

[Yaarel]

The githyanki aren't quite natives to this plane, but they've certainly gone native. ... Seems awfully physical and not at all virtual.

How to square this apparent circle?

The 5e DMs Guide offers a way to square this circle.

The githyanki are immaterial psionic thought constructs, having virtual bodies. However, in order to have bodies that materially reproduce and age to adulthood, they must materialize somewhere. So the githyanki culture oscillates between aster and matter. Thus their astral virtual bodies tend to preserve the memory of matter.

DMG 47
"
Creatures on the Astral Plane dont age or suffer from hunger or thirst. For this reason, humanoids that live on the astral plane (such as the githyanki) establish outposts on other planes, often the material plane, so their children CAN grow to maturity.

"

 

[Yaarel]

So....is the Astral Sea THE Astral Plane?

Is Spelljamming now Planejamming?

So every time you leave a world on the Prime Plane, you plane shift to the Astral Plane, and then plane shift back to the Prime to land on another world?

Or is 5E just renaming The Phlogiston The Astral sea, for no reason?

Yeah, Planejammer confirmed!

 

[Guest 7034872]

The 5e DMs Guide offers a way to square this circle.

The githyanki are immaterial psionic thought constructs, having virtual bodies. However, in order to have bodies that materially reproduce and age to adulthood, they must materialize somewhere. So the githyanki culture oscillates between aster and matter. Thus their astral virtual bodies tend to preserve the memory of matter.

DMG 47
"
Creatures on the Astral Plane dont age or suffer from hunger or thirst. For this reason, humanoids that live on the astral plane (such as the githyanki) establish outposts on other planes, often the material plane, so their children CAN grow to maturity.

"

Right, I get all that, and I did try to use this kind of approach in my initial drafts, but I kept bonking my head up against, "This makes the line between the astral and the material feel rather arbitrary and stipulative." What I sought and could not find was a way to make the whole plane feel fundamentally different from all other planes (so that it wouldn't just be a weirdo trippy version of a material plane), and I just couldn't get there while keeping the githyanki et al.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I understand the astral plane to be strictly immaterial.

It is impossible for matter to exist in the astral plane, in the same way that it is impossible for matter to exist in a dream. To dream about matter is a purely symbolic thought construct.

The book says that bits of solid matter exist in the Astral Plane.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

When designing my new campaign, I fought with myself for two months over just these questions and finally concluded, "It's inconsistent no matter what I choose." 5e has within it many echoes of past editions on top of which sit the writers' more explicit ideas. Even as far back as 2e, though, it looks to me like the concept of the Astral Plane is ultimately self-inconsistent. On one hand, just as Yaarel says, it's often and clearly written that the plane is a domain of thoughts, concepts, and dreams (though in some versions there's also a distinct Plane of Dreams, so the whole account gets weird almost right away), not of physical goo. Great; that makes the whole plane really funky and fascinating and I think I know what to do with it.

Honestly it's very easy. The Astral Plane is a thoughtscape that forms out of ideas from the other planes. Matter like spelljammer ships, and creatures that are not astral projecting, that enter into it are still matter. As small bits of actual matter are stated to exist in it.

 

[Yaarel]

Right, I get all that, and I did try to use this kind of approach in my initial drafts, but I kept bonking my head up against, "This makes the line between the astral and the material feel rather arbitrary and stipulative." What I sought and could not find was a way to make the whole plane feel fundamentally different from all other planes (so that it wouldn't just be a weirdo trippy version of a material plane), and I just couldn't get there while keeping the githyanki et al.

The 5e Spelljammer setting designers seem to have similar goals.

Perkins mentions, how the astral plane can be:
• silly parody (like 2e Spelljammer)
• cosmic horror (like aberrations in the spaces between the stars)
• pirate voyage (where astral is an ocean between worlds)

The wildspace where the outer space of the solar system is teaming with life, and the sun and planets are visible but colorfully vivid, is somewhat trippy.

Meanwhile, it is simple enough to travel from wildspace to wildspace, since one can see the distanct stars and pursue their direction.

Meanwhile, within the astral sea are dominions, which are entrances to separate mindscapes such as the outer planes. There are also various kinds of debris here-and-there. One githyanki astral city is built on a gargantuan corpse of a "dead god". Both the "corpse" and the humanoid city are thought constructs.

The book says that bits of solid matter exist in the Astral Plane.

I know, but I think that this happens to be poor wording. In context, this "solid matter" refers to things like the corpses of "dead gods", whose apparent solidity contrasts the "endless open" "wisps" that they are floating within. Properly speaking, these solid forms are likewise virtual thought constructs made out of aster within the astral plane.

Honestly it's very easy. The Astral Plane is a thoughtscape that forms out of ideas from the other planes. Matter like spelljammer ships, and creatures that are not astral projecting, that enter into it are still matter. As small bits of actual matter are stated to exist in it.

When someone casts the Astral Projection spell, one leaves the material body behind while the soul ventures forth thru the thoughtscape of the astral plane.

However, when the spelljammer ship "enters" the astral plane, the material ship actually disintegrates, leaving only a virtual body "soul" that travels the astral plane.

Compare the concept of a Star Trek transporter, whose body disintegrates while translating into information only, in order to rematerialize elsewhere in a way that includes the continual consciousness.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Meanwhile, within the astral sea are dominions, which are entrances to separate mindscapes such as the outer planes. There are also various kinds of debris here-and-there. One githyanki astral city is built on a gargantuan corpse of a "dead god". Both the "corpse" and the humanoid city are thought constructs.




I know, but I think that this happens to be poor wording. In context, this "solid matter" refers to things like the corpses of "dead gods", whose apparent solidity contrasts the "endless open" "wisps" that they are floating within. Properly speaking, these solid forms are likewise virtual thought constructs made out of aster within the astral plane.

Ehh I disagree. The Githyanki are flesh and blood who just planeshift around. Their built their city on the dead god by stealing material from the Material Plane before retreating back to the Astral.