What is the deal with MotW Feat Blindsight?
- Thread starter kpdezend
- Start date
jgsugden
Legend
It was far too strong. It would still be a bit too strong if you changed it to blindsense 40' (the 3.5 dire bat sensory ability), but it would be far closer to appropriate.
If I wanted to a balanced feat, I'd probably allow a feat that granted the sensory extraordinary qualities of animals while in animal form. In particular, it would grant scent and blindsense to druids when they adopt forms that have these abilities. I do not include low-light vision in this proposed feat because I agree with Andy Collins (who was responsible for the 3.5 PHB) that druids in animal form gain the traits of an animal listed in the back of the MM when they gain the type of an animal - which includes low-light vision.
If I wanted to a balanced feat, I'd probably allow a feat that granted the sensory extraordinary qualities of animals while in animal form. In particular, it would grant scent and blindsense to druids when they adopt forms that have these abilities. I do not include low-light vision in this proposed feat because I agree with Andy Collins (who was responsible for the 3.5 PHB) that druids in animal form gain the traits of an animal listed in the back of the MM when they gain the type of an animal - which includes low-light vision.
jgsugden said:
If a druid only gains the natural abilities of an animal when wildshaping, then I think the spirit of the game has been lost. You wildshape into a wolf just for the combat style, not to gain the scent ability and to hunt invaders in your protected wood? If this is the case, who cares if you can shapechange into any animal? You are only going to change into the 2 or 3 that have the best natural combat styles. Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong?
- Kent -
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
kpdezend said:
Huh?
Of course the Druid only chooses the most deadly forms for combat. But there are other reasonable forms for noncombat tasks...if the Druid were given the bennies.
Wolf (good speed, Scent, racial bonus to Survival)
Bat (flying, Blindsense)
etc.
Did I misunderstand you?
youspoonybard
First Post
The Druid does not get scent and blindsight anymore.
However, I disagree with people who say that "Wildshape is only good for combat now" and the like.
Scent and Blindsight were horrendously overpowered.
Giving Druids the ability to, virtually at will from level 5 on, detect invisible creatures without making checks was insane. Clearly, these abilities had to go to give sneaking rogues half a chance. Canny Druids could even get both of them at once, or with a level 3 spell (non-core)!
"But now the Druid can't use her wolf's nose! Nor can they use the bat sonar!"
It is interesting to me that everyone complains about these two abilities. If I heard more complaints about Cheetah Sprint, for example, I'd be more willing to accompany the player.
The thing is, Druids, when they Wild Shape, still get the racial bonus skills/feats that the animals have. Wolves have a bonus to Survival checks when tracking by scent. "That's not the same" you say, but the problem in this case is the lack of a skill check to smell things. There's Listen for hearing and Spot for seeing. What is there to smell something? Going by the DMG, creatures that track using scent use Survival checks to find things.
When turning into a wolf to track, I see no problem with giving them that bonus on their survival checks, so long as their quarry has an odor. Why, Dire Wolves (maybe normal ones, I don't have my MM here right now) even have Track as a bonus feat, so you don't have to take track! In fact, just giving track as a bonus feat allows a Druid who doesn't have the feat the ability to do more, with that wolf's nose. Just because it's not called Scent doesn't mean the Druid doesn't smell things better.
Moreover, non-combat Wild Shape has been improved by the arsenal of items that the Druid can use. Want to spot something? Use a hawk for its huge racial bonus to Spot, along with lenses that also aid this endeavor. Many animal forms have bonuses to their skills that you can use to your advantage.
Then you turn into a Dire Bear and rip them to shreads.
Also, you can generally get Animal forms faster now. The lack of the Dire restriction allows you to get their forms sooner. The HD restriction was already "built in" to the 3.0 system, because very few animals had more HD than the Druid did when she could first Wild Shape into them (IIRC, by a few I mean 1 or 2). This makes Wild Shape more exciting and varied, as each level the Druid can gloss over new forms, rather than getting a whole bunch new forms every 3~4 levels, and choose the best one for that specific HD for the specific task.
In other words, once you hit Level 8, the Polar Bear isn't necessarily going to be *the* combat form until level 12. Other animals with 9, 10, or 11 HD may get some use before you skip right to Dire Bear.
Last but not least, the addition of Natural Spell to the Core ruleset allows the Druid a lot more flexibility in when she can afford to Wild Shape or not. It also makes many new forms that aren't bears a lot more combat-effective. For a given battle, do I need mobility, hit points, AC, a decent Reflex save, or raw damage? Other nifty things, like dropping for SNA, and the improvement of Call Lightning, allows the Druid tricks that she can employ.
Wild Shape has only been weakened in the fact that you don't get two overpowered abilities for free that you really shouldn't have gotten. In all other aspects, it is more varied and powerful than it was previously.
However, I disagree with people who say that "Wildshape is only good for combat now" and the like.
Scent and Blindsight were horrendously overpowered.
Giving Druids the ability to, virtually at will from level 5 on, detect invisible creatures without making checks was insane. Clearly, these abilities had to go to give sneaking rogues half a chance. Canny Druids could even get both of them at once, or with a level 3 spell (non-core)!
"But now the Druid can't use her wolf's nose! Nor can they use the bat sonar!"
It is interesting to me that everyone complains about these two abilities. If I heard more complaints about Cheetah Sprint, for example, I'd be more willing to accompany the player.
The thing is, Druids, when they Wild Shape, still get the racial bonus skills/feats that the animals have. Wolves have a bonus to Survival checks when tracking by scent. "That's not the same" you say, but the problem in this case is the lack of a skill check to smell things. There's Listen for hearing and Spot for seeing. What is there to smell something? Going by the DMG, creatures that track using scent use Survival checks to find things.
When turning into a wolf to track, I see no problem with giving them that bonus on their survival checks, so long as their quarry has an odor. Why, Dire Wolves (maybe normal ones, I don't have my MM here right now) even have Track as a bonus feat, so you don't have to take track! In fact, just giving track as a bonus feat allows a Druid who doesn't have the feat the ability to do more, with that wolf's nose. Just because it's not called Scent doesn't mean the Druid doesn't smell things better.
Moreover, non-combat Wild Shape has been improved by the arsenal of items that the Druid can use. Want to spot something? Use a hawk for its huge racial bonus to Spot, along with lenses that also aid this endeavor. Many animal forms have bonuses to their skills that you can use to your advantage.
Then you turn into a Dire Bear and rip them to shreads.
Also, you can generally get Animal forms faster now. The lack of the Dire restriction allows you to get their forms sooner. The HD restriction was already "built in" to the 3.0 system, because very few animals had more HD than the Druid did when she could first Wild Shape into them (IIRC, by a few I mean 1 or 2). This makes Wild Shape more exciting and varied, as each level the Druid can gloss over new forms, rather than getting a whole bunch new forms every 3~4 levels, and choose the best one for that specific HD for the specific task.
In other words, once you hit Level 8, the Polar Bear isn't necessarily going to be *the* combat form until level 12. Other animals with 9, 10, or 11 HD may get some use before you skip right to Dire Bear.
Last but not least, the addition of Natural Spell to the Core ruleset allows the Druid a lot more flexibility in when she can afford to Wild Shape or not. It also makes many new forms that aren't bears a lot more combat-effective. For a given battle, do I need mobility, hit points, AC, a decent Reflex save, or raw damage? Other nifty things, like dropping for SNA, and the improvement of Call Lightning, allows the Druid tricks that she can employ.
Wild Shape has only been weakened in the fact that you don't get two overpowered abilities for free that you really shouldn't have gotten. In all other aspects, it is more varied and powerful than it was previously.
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green slime
First Post
I dunno, I never saw scent as an overpowered ability. It didn't allow you to pinpoint an invisible creatures location unless you passed within 5 feet of them, IIRC. Sure you knew someone was present, and that could alarm others.
I wouldn't say blindsight is overpowered either. I'd say that it shows up how _invisibility_ is often a game-breaking ability, especially in its greater or improved form. Hence, any ability that negates invisibility also has a major influence on the game, in an indirect fashion. If you nerf invisibility, then the influence of blindsight is similarly reduced.
green slime
First Post
And here I am frustrated with Spring-Attack...straight from the Core books.
By the time you can spend that many feats to gain that Über Scent feat, the characters already have reliable ways of dealing with the invisible, do they not?
(See invisibility, Invisbility Purge, dust of appearance, glitterdust...)
By the time you can spend that many feats to gain that Über Scent feat, the characters already have reliable ways of dealing with the invisible, do they not?
(See invisibility, Invisbility Purge, dust of appearance, glitterdust...)
youspoonybard
First Post
The way I see scent is as follows:
Suppose you were in a campaign where everyone was blind. Suppose only one character could make spot checks at all to notice people coming towards her. Everyone else had to make Listen checks. In this world, anyone who wanted to be stealthy would max out Move Silently, but since everyone is blind, no one has defense against spot. In addition, no matter how silently or stealthily the opponent moves, nor how inexperienced the one person with the spot check is, the spotter ALWAYS notices the foe, even if they didn't know exactly where they were.
Don't you think that ability to make a spot check is a little powerful?
Blindsight is the same, except change "notices" the foe with knows exactly where the foe is.
I've just found Scent and Blindsight, in my experience, to be very powerful abilities. Especially with Faerie Fire.
Hong, your point is very true, too. But, correct me if I'm wrong, only magical invisibilities were weakened in 3.5. Good old Hide and Move Silently were only weakened in that one more class, the Druid, got Spot and Listen as class skills.
I think that's a fairer replacement for Scent.
Suppose you were in a campaign where everyone was blind. Suppose only one character could make spot checks at all to notice people coming towards her. Everyone else had to make Listen checks. In this world, anyone who wanted to be stealthy would max out Move Silently, but since everyone is blind, no one has defense against spot. In addition, no matter how silently or stealthily the opponent moves, nor how inexperienced the one person with the spot check is, the spotter ALWAYS notices the foe, even if they didn't know exactly where they were.
Don't you think that ability to make a spot check is a little powerful?
Blindsight is the same, except change "notices" the foe with knows exactly where the foe is.
I've just found Scent and Blindsight, in my experience, to be very powerful abilities. Especially with Faerie Fire.
Hong, your point is very true, too. But, correct me if I'm wrong, only magical invisibilities were weakened in 3.5. Good old Hide and Move Silently were only weakened in that one more class, the Druid, got Spot and Listen as class skills.
I think that's a fairer replacement for Scent.
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