What is the essence of 4E?

4e keywords, IMHO, don't tell you how to parse a power, aside from a few obvious things like damage type (all of which are pretty self-explanatory). Most of what keywords are for is to provide the 'hooks' that you can use to hang other stuff from (IE I can have a feat that interacts with things with the 'necromantic' keyword). 5e, by eschewing this, is a big step backwards in clarity and ease of use in play and for designers. It is actually a considerable turn off in my book. When I play (which I do much more often than I read a book) I want CLARITY and brevity, so I can quickly and reliably understand what the thing is getting at.
Keywords are very much an example of system mastery design. They're great for experienced players who know the game, but hard for newcomers and casual players who may memorise the rules less thoroughly.

I disagree, all editions of D&D assume increasing adds to the die roll (or in the case of AD&D decreasing THAC0 scores and saves, which is the same thing). You fall behind in 5e just as you would in any other E, or tread water. That's the whole D&D paradigm. Now, the differences in levels is not a difference in MATH, there's no reason to change working math, its a change in thematics, tone, and play. In 1e and 2e the game becomes crazier and more dominated by powerful spells and items, with monster lore graduating from your foes being 'an orc' to 'Demogorgon Prince of Demons'.
Your THAC0 goes up, but the AC of enemies doesn't go up at a matching rate. It barely goes up at all. And there's not the same level based tiers for monsters; very often published adventures threw lots of low level monsters at you for attrition. And in terms of skills, you only get better, both in terms of proficiencies and thieves' skills.
And the whole point of bounded accuracy in 5e is that you don't fall behind. You don't always encounter level appropriate locks that you always have a roughly 55% chance of disarming provided you always sink skill ranks into the check unless you find a way to optimise...

Epic works. It is still crazy in good ways, and more challenging to run well, but it hangs together.
Every person I have talked with or listened to who had a campaign run from 1-30 says that epic falls apart as the encounter rules collapse and PCs become broken.
 

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Ted Serious

First Post
Hi everyone,

I was having a discussion with someone else on another forum, concerning the topic of Pathfinder 2 (Electric Boogaloo), and a comparison came up between that game and D&D 4E. It was suggested that the two appear quite similar in many ways, because combat is very tactical (Theater-of-the-Mind being neither practical nor encouraged), and every character has a new choice to make at every single level. It was subsequently countered that making a choice at every level, in order to create an extremely customized character, was not considered one of the core defining traits of that edition.

Following that premise, then, what is the core defining trait of 4E? Is it the choices? The grid? The unified resource structure? What do you consider to be the essence of 4E, such that you would recognize a game as being 4E-derived if it shared such an element?

Essentially 4e is a Class based Paper & Pencil Fantasy RPG.

So is Pathfinder.
So too will be Pathfinder 2.

You all are borrowing trouble.
 

The reason why you couldn't fight lower-level enemies in 4E was tied directly to the HP-recovery mechanics. The assumption is that you would recover to full HP after every encounter, which meant that every encounter had to be potentially lethal; a low-level encounter that only ate through a small portion of your HP would have been pointless.
You, be default at least, do a full recovery after a long rest. During the adventuring day you're subject to the limit of healing surges available to your character (there are small amounts of fairly expensive surgeless healing, but its rare). You CAN fight lower-level enemies, but frankly 4e's story oriented concept of going to the narratively weighty elements tends to mean it doesn't happen much. Instead you can insert minions into encounters to represent 'mooks'. There are times though when a below-level encounter makes sense. If properly set up it could provide a bit of a nasty resource drain for an incautious party.

I'm not certain that it will be the same in PF2. I know that there's a limit in place to prevent over-use of low-level cure wands, but I can't say for certain whether the assumption is for everyone to heal up to full between encounters, or even every day. If healing isn't trivial, then low-level enemies might still be useful for attrition purposes (even if they need a 16+ in order to hit).

3.x healing and magic production assumptions mean that healing is basically almost limitless, although not free. Also usually available after each encounter. This is of course much less true at lower levels. The HS system of 4e was a reaction to this, putting a hard limit on what was effectively unlimited and rather a spoiler.

5e's solution is better than 3e, though personally I like the 4e version a little better. I also like the fixed quantity HS better than 5e's weirdly named hit dice, which can frequently bone you out of any real recovery at all.
 

... you are familiar with bounded accuracy yes?



I was very dubious about bounded accuracy when I started playing 5e... and now I love it. As a GM it's fantastic. There is no DC treadmill, a crazy race to increase your AC (or become hugely vulnerable) etc etc

Its not THAT bounded. 5e's progression is still similar to AD&D's, albeit fighters don't outpace the rest of the PCs in 5e. 4e's pace is pretty much identical to that in AD&D. Its more of a fine-tuning than a huge difference really. One area which seems to give the impression that it is a higher rate of advance is that 4e runs to 30 levels, where 5e ends at level 20, which is not really quite the same thing. In other words, 4e incorporated 'beyond normal levels play' as Epic, which continues the bonus advancement, where 5e's last 5 or 6 levels are sort of not so easy to classify by 4e's standards.

In any case, in 4e there's simply much less of a hard concept of a given creature having just a specific level and fixed statblock. There are, potentially and depending on your milieu's conventions, things like 'epic orcs', which sure can pose a threat to epic PCs! It is just less cut-and-dried in that respect.

I think this illustrates an important characteristic of 4e. It is less concerned with mere mechanical variation, and more interested in thematic variety and dimensions of design which feed directly into telling stories in interesting ways. 5e is more interested in sort of canonical D&D lore in terms of "this kind of monster is level X and its always higher level than monster Y". It is a far cry from the 'world is the numbers' of 3.5 perhaps, but it shades much more in that direction, where 4e eschews that sort of concept entirely.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Its not THAT bounded. 5e's progression is still similar to AD&D's, albeit fighters don't outpace the rest of the PCs in 5e.

A first level warrior in 5e will usually have +5 to hit. At level 20 this will be + 11 (+4 from proficiency, +2 from increased stats). That's +6 over 20 levels. If we are talking about a skill or save where there isn't stat improvement, that's +4.

Magical weapons and other doo-dads also are more limited - the "best" bonus a sword can give you is +3 instead of +5.

In AD&D a first level's fighter's THACO is 20 (or 19?) + stats. At level 20 it's 1 (+ stats), so more or less 20 over 20 levels. His save vs spell went from 19 to 6, a 15 improvement.

So... how exactly is is "similar" to AD&D again?
 

Keywords are very much an example of system mastery design. They're great for experienced players who know the game, but hard for newcomers and casual players who may memorise the rules less thoroughly.
It is not about memorizing rules. There aren't rules for these keywords, aside one very brief section in the PHB that is about half a page (and which really doesn't say much that is important). It is about being able to see plainly from the description of your Frost Blade that it does indeed add the COLD keyword and damage type to your MBA and thus interacts with your Lasting Frost feat. This is something that in 5e requires parsing dense text of 2 different game elements and then hoping that it isn't worded so vaguely that you still have to consult the DM.

Your THAC0 goes up, but the AC of enemies doesn't go up at a matching rate. It barely goes up at all.
This is patently untrue. Higher level monsters almost universally have better ACs. Particularly in 2e where monsters with more than 6-8 hit dice are MUCH more powerful, and the 1e quirk of repeating 20 5 times on the attack matrix doesn't translate to THAC0 (meaning that negative ACs are MUCH more effective than in the older edition). I've done the math, even 1e has pretty much the same overall rate of advance in bonus and defenses that 4e has. Albeit things start off a bit worse for the PCs, usually needing a 14 or so to hit, and slowly progress to where they can often hit on a 10 or maybe even an 8 if they're not taking on a top-rung enemy (but forget it if you run into demons or something like that).

And there's not the same level based tiers for monsters; very often published adventures threw lots of low level monsters at you for attrition.
Not very often. And 4e can do the same with both minions and simply standard monsters (which are only a modest threat really, particularly if they're something like level - 1 or 2). AD&D really is hard to compare in another way. Hit Dice are not really a very good measure of threat. A hill giant in AD&D could be offed by 3rd level PCs with care, heck it could have 12 hit points! Threat has more to do with special abilities/attacks than with raw hit points and such. 4e moved to a more hit point (and thus level) centered mechanic, with very few things having severe effects that aren't reflected primarily in hit points. This is why the 4-6 hit die drow in D1 and D2 are pretty deadly, because they come with lots of poison and the ability to hit and run. They're no match in face-to-face combat to 12th level PCs.

And in terms of skills, you only get better, both in terms of proficiencies and thieves' skills.
And the whole point of bounded accuracy in 5e is that you don't fall behind. You don't always encounter level appropriate locks that you always have a roughly 55% chance of disarming provided you always sink skill ranks into the check unless you find a way to optimise...
You don't 'always encounter' such things in 4e either. You are just very much likely to adventure in areas that are thematically, and thus level, appropriate to your characters. In those places most things are possible to overcome with modest luck and a little ingenuity. Its perfectly possible and entirely appropriate and within the rules, for a 4e DM to stick a 20th level lock in front of your level 6 party. They won't get past it, at least not by picking it. Maybe that's the point! The beauty of this kind of setup is, it puts things clearly in the adventure designer's court. Its clear what everything will mean and do within the adventure when its played.

Every person I have talked with or listened to who had a campaign run from 1-30 says that epic falls apart as the encounter rules collapse and PCs become broken.

Well, now you have talked to one who has the opposite experience! I'm far from alone, there are dozens of posters on EnWorld who will happily tell you the same thing. Not to mention at least 3 groups of players I ran through campaigns during my 4e GMing.

I believe that people had a problem in that they attempted to play epic as if it was just heroic with bigger numbers, AND IT IS NOT. Its a very different game which plays quite differently in a thematic and dramatic sense. Numbers-wise it actually IS pretty close. The thing is, Epic PCs have vastly more options at their disposal, and have had 30 levels to generate synergies and tactics out of the various options they have available to them. No bog standard of templatized encounter design is going to counteract that. You have to read more into things. Epic scenarios need to be cast in epic terms.

There aren't 5 standard monsters worth of opponents in a level 30 encounter, designed to the 'Commander and Troops' template. Instead its Orcus demon prince of the undead with 100 level 30 minion ghouls, a level 29 elite lieutenant, and a bunch of nasty terrain/traps to make the PCs lives hell, combined with some sort of nasty time constraint, plot twist, etc. to turn things INTERESTING! This was a hard lesson for people to learn, and WotC reworked epic monsters in MM3 and MV to try to make it easier on DMs.

It is perfectly possible to build kick-ass Epic encounters though, even using mostly stock MM1/2 monsters. I'd say it is still 50x easier than making an equivalent 3.x encounter. 5e is kind of in the middle. They clearly adopted SOME lessons from 4e, but backslid on other things for whatever reasons (I'm sorry, but the whole spells for monsters thing just sucks).
 

A first level warrior in 5e will usually have +5 to hit. At level 20 this will be + 11 (+4 from proficiency, +2 from increased stats). That's +6 over 20 levels. If we are talking about a skill or save where there isn't stat improvement, that's +4.

Magical weapons and other doo-dads also are more limited - the "best" bonus a sword can give you is +3 instead of +5.

In AD&D a first level's fighter's THACO is 20 (or 19?) + stats. At level 20 it's 1 (+ stats), so more or less 20 over 20 levels. His save vs spell went from 19 to 6, a 15 improvement.

So... how exactly is is "similar" to AD&D again?

But WOULD expect to have a +3 weapon at level 20 in 5e, just like you would expect to have a +5 weapon in 4e at level 30, and a +3 or even +4 weapon in 1e (as well as anywhere from +3 to +9 for giant strength, etc.). Also, its perfectly feasible for a 5e fighter to increase stats by 6, for +3 though that is probably not the most common approach people will take. Its also very hard to say exactly what the maximum, or even typical, bonuses would be from magic in 5e. It is quite possible for a level 20 fighter to be wielding a Hammer of Thunderbolts, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength, providing a magical/stat bonus of +11 alone. Is that likely? I don't know... My experience with 5e and AD&D says that 'yes', this is the sort of stuff you'd WANT to happen at level 20, otherwise why really bother?

4e just has a different sort of concept of this kind of awesome. You ALWAYS end up with the +5 enhancement bonus, and you are almost certain to have at least +9 stat bonus, and you will have a +15 level bonus, but none of that is what makes you 'cool'. That comes from what you can DO, narratively, what the nasty artifact weapon you wield means and does, etc. Its just a different kind of game which doesn't use the math to create engagement in the same way that AD&D certainly often did, and 5e seems to do to about an equal degree.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
Every person I have talked with or listened to who had a campaign run from 1-30 says that epic falls apart as the encounter rules collapse and PCs become broken.
Well, our 4e campaigns never got that far. Our longest campaign ended in the middle of Paragon tier. But at that point we ran into the opposite problem: even standard monsters could apply nasty conditions that we really weren't prepared for. Thanks to retraining we managed to adapt a bit, but many encounters became really tough for our group, especially if our main striker was taken out.

So, what exactly caused this brokenness in the epic tier? The epic destiny abilities?

I also have a suspicion that most groups that made it into epic tier were 'early adopters' and only faced encounters with MM1 / MM2 monsters that didn't yet use the proper math.
Also, in many reports about epic encounters being too easy, the PCs were apparently able to 'go nova', i.e. use all of their daily powers in every encounter. In our games we usually had at least 3 or 4 encounters before being able to take an extended rest, so on average we only had 1 or 2 daily powers available in each. We were always quite reluctant to use our daily powers because we never knew how many more encounters we'd have to face.
 

You, be default at least, do a full recovery after a long rest. During the adventuring day you're subject to the limit of healing surges available to your character (there are small amounts of fairly expensive surgeless healing, but its rare). You CAN fight lower-level enemies, but frankly 4e's story oriented concept of going to the narratively weighty elements tends to mean it doesn't happen much.
As I interpreted it, you were expected to heal up to full between encounters, and healing surges limited how many encounters you could go through in a day. Generally speaking, you wouldn't keep going, if you were low an HP and you had no surges left.

Whether they didn't want you to run easy encounters because it would have been a waste of time at the table in exchange for very little attrition, or because they would be boring from a narrative perspective and they wanted you to focus on the "important" parts, doesn't seem all that important of a distinction. In practice, they would tend to reinforce each other.
3.x healing and magic production assumptions mean that healing is basically almost limitless, although not free. Also usually available after each encounter. This is of course much less true at lower levels. The HS system of 4e was a reaction to this, putting a hard limit on what was effectively unlimited and rather a spoiler.
Maybe it's just because I was coming out of AD&D, where healing and magic items were practically non-existent, but we never hit upon the "magic wand" solution. When I first saw it in action, many years later, it seemed more like an exploit than anything that was ever intended; especially given that the game worked perfectly fine - arguably even better - when we didn't heal to full after every fight. After all, it meant we could have serious battles against weaker enemies, which became meaningful because of the attrition involved.

I'm willing to buy that healing surges were their solution to prevent that exploit, but it seems like a stretch to ever assume that easy healing was the intent of third edition. Honestly, at least half of the emergent play in third edition seems unintended.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
But WOULD expect to have a +3 weapon at level 20 in 5e, just like you would expect to have a +5 weapon in 4e at level 30, and a +3 or even +4 weapon in 1e (as well as anywhere from +3 to +9 for giant strength, etc.).

Nope. You might still be rocking that +1 sword you found at level 5.

Also, its perfectly feasible for a 5e fighter to increase stats by 6, for +3 though that is probably not the most common approach people will take.
Which would mean they started at +4 instead of +5.

Its also very hard to say exactly what the maximum, or even typical, bonuses would be from magic in 5e. It is quite possible for a level 20 fighter to be wielding a Hammer of Thunderbolts, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength, providing a magical/stat bonus of +11 alone. Is that likely? I don't know... My experience with 5e and AD&D says that 'yes', this is the sort of stuff you'd WANT to happen at level 20, otherwise why really bother?

It is extremely unlikely, and it would mean essentially that most of the legendary items the party found were for the fighter. We have guidance, we have treasure tables, it's not that hard to know what kind of equipment a level 20 fighter could have.

4e just has a different sort of concept of this kind of awesome. You ALWAYS end up with the +5 enhancement bonus, and you are almost certain to have at least +9 stat bonus, and you will have a +15 level bonus, but none of that is what makes you 'cool'. That comes from what you can DO, narratively, what the nasty artifact weapon you wield means and does, etc. Its just a different kind of game which doesn't use the math to create engagement in the same way that AD&D certainly often did, and 5e seems to do to about an equal degree.

Again, you're completely off the mark about the math in 5e vs 2nd ed. From your given examples, it's 4e that is a lot more like 2nd ed, numbers wise.
 

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