What is THE NEXT BIG THING?

Upper_Krust said:
Hey Flexor dude! :)



To me there is little or no fundamental difference.

Added to which so many already use minis/battlemat in some capacity that it will be a smooth transition.

Heres an example, instead of buying the Oriental Adventures Hardcover, you get the Dungeons & Ninjas boxed set. You still get the same new classes, new feats, new spells, setting and new monsters. The only difference is everything is a lot more visceral: Minis for the Classes & Monsters, Cards for the Spells and Feats.

There is nothing in the hardcover rulebook format you can't do within the boxed set.

I disagree, I think there is a fundamental difference when you make the way the game plays a slave to a board. Do you have to roll for movement if I want to go to Greyhawk City? Is that a space on the board I have to try and get to with dice rolls? How do you handle the very free form actions of the PC's outside of combat situations?
 

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Hi MerricB! :)

MerricB said:
Correct.

Look, there is the price of *producing* the minis, and there is the price assigned on the secondary market to the minis. They are different things. This game can't look at the secondary price. You can get orcs for $0.50 each on the secondary market. You can't sell them for that much on the primary market, because you'd lose money. The secondary market prices only work due to the laws of supply and demand.

A package of 8 miniatures is us$15 at present, or about $2 per mini.
A huge package is 7 regular minis and 1 huge mini, and costs $22. So, a huge mini is about $9.

I totally see what you are saying. However, I would be very curious to know what the actual manufacturing discrepancy between a Medium sized and a Huge mini really is. I mean these are plastic minis for goodness sake, not big Citadel Miniatures metal ones. The difference in terms of the cost of the plastic itself is probably negligable.

You can buy a plastic bucket for a few dollars (I imagine). You could mould that down into a Gargantuan Black Dragon or two.

Which really means that the price hike between Medium and Huge plastic minis is probably the best kept secret in miniatures.

Now that doesn't take the extra time needed to sculpt and paint larger minis into account.

But I don't think there is enough there to warrant the same price hikes due to size as metal miniatures.

Take a look at the toy market. You can find 'colossal' sized figures for about the same money WotC are asking for a booster pack!
 

Hey Flexor! :)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
I disagree, I think there is a fundamental difference when you make the way the game plays a slave to a board. Do you have to roll for movement if I want to go to Greyhawk City? Is that a space on the board I have to try and get to with dice rolls? How do you handle the very free form actions of the PC's outside of combat situations?

Very simply the way its always been done in RPGs. Beyond being a visceral component, the 'board' (and minis) is only for tactical aspects of the game.
 

Upper_Krust said:
You know if I had a dollar for everytime you mispelled the word Slarecian, I'd be Donald Trump. :D

...thanks...Upper Krust, now I need a new monitor...

...and a new Dr. Pepper...

...and a new nasal lining...

;)
 

Upper_Krust said:
I am suggesting that in lieu of a pen & paper 4th Edition we bring out a boardgame called Dungeons & Dragons.

The next biggest thing in tabletop roleplaying will be ... a board game? That seems to be your base argument here - but it's not one that I'd accept, and I doubt many other tabletop rpg gamers would either.
 

Once they're done devouring your next 26 paychecks, that is.

Maptools is free. Maps, chat, dice rolling and easy enough for me to figure it out in about 10 minutes.
Fantasy Grounds is like $35 for the DM version and $20 for a player (one-time payment). Sweet program that seems pretty popular.

Four Ugly Monsters is running a convention, for free, show-casing a bunch of virtual table-tops in late March.


Pilsnerquest
 


Why I’m Against a Game Board for D&D

Why I’m Against a Game Board for D&D

The story goes that one day in the Summer of 1776 General George Washington was in Philadelphia to plead the case for his troops. They needed supplies and arms, so he was there to call upon the Continental Congress for funds and donations. He got word of the upcoming Declaration of Independence (which he agreed with) and went to see Congressman Thomas Jefferson about it.

Tom let him have a look at the initial draft, and George could see just one problem. To which he had a solution.

“Mister Jefferson,” he said, “Change the wording here to read’ “We hold this truth to be self-evident; that all men are endowed by their creator with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.’”

Tom said it wasn’t necessary, that everyone would recognize that the words, “...all men are created equal...” were a legal fiction, necessary to give the document the proper moral weight. George averred, saying that the capacity of people to take things all too literally could not be underestimated. Today there are those who do take those words most literally, and insist that all must be equal, even if it means enforcing equality by force. And by equality I mean a literal equality in what each person is allowed to be able to do.

So what does this have to do with Dungeons & Dragons?

A certain person (hi Upper Krust!) has been going on and on about adding a game board to D&D. Says it will make it easier for people to get into the game. That may well be true. Then again, it may well not. But how well it facilitates entry is besides the point. A game board for D&D is the wrong move for two reasons; it restricts the playing area, and it reinforces a fundamental misapprehension of what an RPG is.

First, a game board would restrict the field of play. D&D is a game without boundaries, other than what you’d expect when the field of play is the size of the Earth, or larger. A board, unless so large as to be meaningless, limits the field of play, constrains it. There is really only so far you can go before you reach the edge and have to turn back. It true that a world is limited, and that you can reach any limits in time. But a world doesn’t have the feeling of limitation a game board has. Then too there is the perception associated with game boards. Namely, that one cannot go beyond the boundaries. Whatever is there is all that is there. No matter how well a designer explains that the setting can go beyond the bounds of the board, there will always be those who’ll insist that nothing can go past those bounds. Further, they will insist that this is how it must be. No matter how symbolic, any limitation will always be taken literally by somebody.

Second, I’m against a D&D gameboard because it reinforces the idea that D&D is a traditional game. No, not a traditional RPG as some may think, a traditional game with sides, victory conditions, and winners and losers. No, D&D is an open ended game, a cooperative game if the players want such. Dungeons & Dragons is a game where the players can work together to achieve a goal, or fail as luck and skill dictate. There can be competition, but it is not required. There can be a winner, but it is not required. The only real requirement is some degree of participation, though that need only be as small as doing some libary research and patching up wounds if that is what the player prefers. A game board would give the impression that D&D is a traditional game. It has a board, it must be like Monopoly or checkers.

A game board would give the wrong message, give potential players the wrong idea of what D&D is about and how it is played. It would shape play in an undesirable fashion, and degrade play experience in a fundamental way.

Not only that, but it’s insulting. The very idea assumes that the common man needs some sort of crutch. That he is incapable of learning and adapting to something new, something he has not experienced before. It basically says that the mainstream audience cannot - not will not, but cannot - adopt something new unless it is presented as something he is familiar with. That’s what a game board for D&D does, it presents D&D as a board game, when such is something D&D is most emphatically not.

Let D&D be D&D. Let it be the game of adventure, exploration, and - yes - loot grabbing it was made to be. For Gruumsh’s sake let’s not stick a monkey wrench on the end of a dolphin’s snout and call it an improvement over the original model. Keep your options unlimited, say no to a D&D game board.
 

Upper_Krust said:
I totally see what you are saying. However, I would be very curious to know what the actual manufacturing discrepancy between a Medium sized and a Huge mini really is.

Sculpting fees are a major part of it. A huge mini costs around 5x a human sized mini to produce. Material costs are certainly more for huge, but in metal that's a significant difference. The big cost in plastic is tooling for the molds which are very expensive. The bigger the figure, the bigger the mold. Plus, it takes more time to paint and probably more paint stops to make a huge mini look good.
 

Hey mythusmage! :)

mythusmage said:
Why I’m Against a Game Board for D&D

*SNIP*

mythusmage said:
So what does this have to do with Dungeons & Dragons?

A certain person (hi Upper Krust!) has been going on and on about adding a game board to D&D.

Well I mentioned it once and then replied to people who responded to my initial comments - so I can't see how that common courtesy could be regarded as going on and on about something.

mythusmage said:
Says it will make it easier for people to get into the game. That may well be true. Then again, it may well not.

Lets stick with the obvious assumption that it will, since thats what common sense seems to suggest.

mythusmage said:
But how well it facilitates entry is besides the point. A game board for D&D is the wrong move for two reasons; it restricts the playing area, and it reinforces a fundamental misapprehension of what an RPG is.

First, a game board would restrict the field of play. D&D is a game without boundaries, other than what you’d expect when the field of play is the size of the Earth, or larger. A board, unless so large as to be meaningless, limits the field of play, constrains it. There is really only so far you can go before you reach the edge and have to turn back. It true that a world is limited, and that you can reach any limits in time. But a world doesn’t have the feeling of limitation a game board has. Then too there is the perception associated with game boards. Namely, that one cannot go beyond the boundaries. Whatever is there is all that is there. No matter how well a designer explains that the setting can go beyond the bounds of the board, there will always be those who’ll insist that nothing can go past those bounds. Further, they will insist that this is how it must be. No matter how symbolic, any limitation will always be taken literally by somebody.

Heres the thing. The board is only there to aid tactical situations, ie. combat. Just like castle maps and temple layouts in published adventures. So that invalidates your first reservation.

mythusmage said:
Second, I’m against a D&D gameboard because it reinforces the idea that D&D is a traditional game. No, not a traditional RPG as some may think, a traditional game with sides, victory conditions, and winners and losers. No, D&D is an open ended game, a cooperative game if the players want such. Dungeons & Dragons is a game where the players can work together to achieve a goal, or fail as luck and skill dictate. There can be competition, but it is not required. There can be a winner, but it is not required. The only real requirement is some degree of participation, though that need only be as small as doing some libary research and patching up wounds if that is what the player prefers. A game board would give the impression that D&D is a traditional game. It has a board, it must be like Monopoly or checkers.

A game board would give the wrong message, give potential players the wrong idea of what D&D is about and how it is played. It would shape play in an undesirable fashion, and degrade play experience in a fundamental way.

I agree to the extent that people 'could' get the wrong impression of the game from the term 'boardgame'. But it would be exactly that - a wrong impression.

mythusmage said:
Not only that, but it’s insulting. The very idea assumes that the common man needs some sort of crutch. That he is incapable of learning and adapting to something new, something he has not experienced before. It basically says that the mainstream audience cannot - not will not, but cannot - adopt something new unless it is presented as something he is familiar with. That’s what a game board for D&D does, it presents D&D as a board game, when such is something D&D is most emphatically not.

It says nothing of the kind. Its not that casual or new gamers cannot play the game, simply that they are likely to be dissuaded from doing so by the sheer volume of rules central to the game.

mythusmage said:
Let D&D be D&D. Let it be the game of adventure, exploration, and - yes - loot grabbing it was made to be. For Gruumsh’s sake let’s not stick a monkey wrench on the end of a dolphin’s snout and call it an improvement over the original model. Keep your options unlimited, say no to a D&D game board.

Elitist scaremongering.
 

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