D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[EzekielRaiden]

I would actually like a DnD that asks me:

- What do you want to do (choose one):
-- Protect my friends
-- Do a lot of damage
-- Support my friends
-- Hinder the enemies

- How do you want to do it (choose one):
-- with weapons
-- with arcane magic
-- with divine magic
-- with psionic magic

OK that's your class! Isn't it a bit what Dagger Heart is trying to do?

On the matter of having few base classes, and then branching out, I think Dragon Age and Shadow of the Demon Lord have been quite successful at it. Doing the same for DnD wouldn't be that difficult.

There is such a D&D.

It was called 4e.

 

[Aldarc]

Because video games could not make the cleric work outside of the abstract, you can't role play faith well in most games with a side order of computer guys in the past being less god-loving on average

I'm not really convinced by this because the Paladin is one of the most popular archetypes in a lot of video games. But Paladins also usually don't make a core trinity of archetypes.

I do think that in this matter a lot of video game designers see things the same way: there is no need for a D&D style heavily armored holy warrior as represented by the Cleric when the Paladin exists as the holy warrior. You certainly have lightly-armored WoW Priests, GW1 Monks, and FF White Mages out there. In Guild Wars 2, I would also note that there are a lot of human priests in the game who venerate the six gods, but they include people of the different classes. There is not one set class for the job.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

In Guild Wars 2, I would also note that there are a lot of human priests in the game who venerate the six gods, but they include people of the different classes. There is not one set class for the job.

Indeed, there's an argument to be made that the Guardian, which is basically a Paladin + Cleric mashup, specifically came into existence because Kormir became the new goddess of truth. It's not official canon or anything, at least AFAIK, but it is suspicious how that form of magic didn't exist before (during GW1) but does in GW2, set some 250 years after the first game, in which Kormir assumed the mantle formerly held by Abbadon, turning secrets into truth.

 

[Aldarc]

Indeed, there's an argument to be made that the Guardian, which is basically a Paladin + Cleric mashup, specifically came into existence because Kormir became the new goddess of truth. It's not official canon or anything, at least AFAIK, but it is suspicious how that form of magic didn't exist before (during GW1) but does in GW2, set some 250 years after the first game, in which Kormir assumed the mantle formerly held by Abbadon, turning secrets into truth.

There is an old article here from before GW2 was released where Jeff Grubb, yes that Jeff Grubb, talks about the origin of the Guardian:

Did the style change much from concept to creation? How did you arrive at her final appearance?

Eric Flannum: From an appearance standpoint, it didn't actually change a whole lot. Our artists really nailed the look of the Guardian pretty quickly, which they tend to do quite often (we're pretty spoiled that way). From a functionality standpoint, I think we started with something that was less magical feeling; at one point we were calling the Guardian a "Knight." As the rest of our professions began taking shape around the Guardian, she started becoming more magical, and we brought in some elements from the protection Monk and Paragon from the first game. The current Guardian feels very magical in nature.

Is there a story behind the Guardian on the lore end of things? Do you have any thoughts on how it came to be?

Jeff Grubb: With the turmoil in Elona and the spread of the Order of Whispers into other lands, more Paragon teaching showed elsewhere in Tyria. These teachings melded with other traditions, and over time, the Guardians and their abilities can be found throughout the world and among all the races. They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity's defensive nature and the Charr's desire to rule the battlefield.

I think the Guardian is much more of a pragmatic and tactical user of a magic as opposed to an Elementalist, who is a pure student of magic. The Elementalist casts discrete spells, and you have the feeling that there is a heritage and body of knowledge behind those spells. Guardians seem to use magical energy in the heat of combat, from the front line. That sense of immediacy sets the Guardian apart from more traditional spell-casters and allows for a heavily armored magical character.

There is a lot of talk drawing parallels between the Guardian and more than one current Guild Wars profession. How much of the Guardian profession was pulled from the current crop, both from an "out-of-character" design standpoint and from a lore standpoint within the storyline?

Jeff Grubb: I've seen the Guardian compared to the prot Monk, the Paragon, the Dervish, and the Ritualist, and there are bits and pieces of all of them in there, plus a lot of new stuff. The virtues in particular are a neat piece that makes the entire package work. It is not so much a replacement of any one profession but rather an evolution that uses the best parts of several earlier classes.

Eric Flannum: I'll add that we didn't purposefully set out to make most of those connections. They tended to come from the fact that all of those professions do a little bit of what we wanted the Guardian to do. For example, we bounced around to a lot of different profession mechanics for the Guardian before we designed the virtues. After designing them, I remember that we joked that we'd just put the 55 Monk into the game (just a joke! The Guardian plays nothing like the 55 Monk).

GW2 Guardians are basically an evolution of the GW1 Monk + GW1 Paragon + a few other professions. I do think that it's mostly the same magic as before, or at least similar enough as anything else when talking about professions transitioning between GW1 and GW2, albeit now in a different combination and now more heavily armored.

 

[Remathilis]

Of course, never meant to imply otherwise

As you said: your worldbuilding, not mine.

From mine it would be they are both experts: on in fighting and one in exploration (though I don’t imagine that as the rogues role myself).

So if I took your world view it would be 2 classes:

Expert
Mage

You're so close....

You make magic and combat both "skills" and then add them to the skill list, then you only need one class. You want a mage? Invest in magic casting skills. You want a warrior? Invest in weapon and armor skills. You want a thief? Invest in exploring skills. You want a priest? Invest in religious skills and either magic or combat to taste. Want a bard? Put one skill point in everything.

When you boil classes down this far, it's pretty much worth it to finish the job and go classless.

 

[steeldragons]

Soooo...

Have we decided 12 or 13? Seems like consensus average is 12-13.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If there is a genuine "never psionics" voting block then they've failed utterly; the Soulknife, the Aberrant Mind, the new GOOlock, and the Psi Warrior are all going to be core.

They fed psionics to magic so there's nothing left but the names. Goodie.

 

[Neonchameleon]

They fed psionics to magic so there's nothing left but the names. Goodie.

Indeed. That's how the Psion was created. An off-brand wizard.

5e is recovering from this bad decision which is why we have Soulknives and Psi Warriors and not just wizards with the serial numbers filed off.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Soooo...

Have we decided 12 or 13? Seems like consensus average is 12-13.

I think the only real consensus is that it's a multiple of four.

 

[Mecheon]

Indeed. That's how the Psion was created. An off-brand wizard.

5e is recovering from this bad decision which is why we have Soulknives and Psi Warriors and not just wizards with the serial numbers filed off.

The Psion was created in 2E to give a home to all those random pre-existing psionic powers. Regardless though, we are talking old enough that the Illusionist was around, as in the completely seperate spellcaster who wasn't a wizard at the time

And I'm going to disagree on it being a bad decision. I mean, okay, touching 1E/2E psionics is a bad decision, yes, but the concept clearly had legs and was popular enough folks wanted it back. I'm sorry it isn't sufficiently different in the game who's base mechanics are rolling dice for any ability and, therefore, involves rolling dice for ability success I guess?

Soulknives and psi warriors are failing to live up to what people are wanting fully from psions. Its that simple. Aberrant Mind also does that because while "Embrace your heritage and break the boundaries of your flesh" is a very neat capstone, isn't exaxctly anything to do with being psychic and instead everything to do with one of your ancestors being a bit too into tentacle monsters