Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[TwoSix]

Solely replicating spell effects and calling the results non-magical is not what I’d have in mind.

Sure, but at the same time, it would be nice if spells also didn't overlap on concepts that thematically belong to warriors. Ideally, magic is "different" from combat effects; it would be nice if what magic is capable of isn't a superset of what a fighter can do.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure, but at the same time, it would be nice if spells also didn't overlap on concepts that thematically belong to warriors. Ideally, magic is "different" from combat effects; it would be nice if what magic is capable of isn't a superset of what a fighter can do.

no one claimed it should be

 

[TwoSix]

no one claimed it should be

Oh, plenty of people can and have claimed that magic should be capable of anything. Not you, but plenty of posters throughout the years.

 

[NotAYakk]

No body is saying give the SAME power to the mundanes. But give them other ''buttons'' to press to influence the fiction around them. Stronghold and mark of prestige are a possibility, but they are a subsystem I think everyone should benefit, not just high level mundane character.

Why not something like Legendary actions/legendary resistance/Lair action/regional effects, like the monsters have, but for the mundane. Its already a mechanic in the game, feels appropriately powerful and mythic and are not forced to be spells or magical effect (though they could be for some sublasses)

If you attach new subclasses to fighters at around T3 and T4, you can give the player a choice.

They can go all Wuxia. They can become a Lord. They can become a Demigod. They can transition to a magic-fighter, or an Anime fighter, or whatever.

The fiction-power levels of these subclasses can be tied to the tier in question.

Having such a "late subclass" can be optional. You can still play the baseline 5e fighter, if you are happy with that. The purpose of this stuff is for people who aren't happy with playing the baseline 5e fighter next to people who can copy themselves and polymorph both of the copies into ancient brass dragons as an opening move in a fight.

I'd argue there isn't "fiction room" for a baseline fighter with no excuse to be awesome to be as awesome. You can have more mundany subclasses however.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Solely replicating spell effects and calling the results non-magical is not what I’d have in mind.

Then what do you have in mind? If its gonna be powerful, thematic and not already covered by a spell effect, the design space starts to be a little restrained?

My argument is that Steelwind strike, Snare, Zephy strike, Conjure Volley etc should have beed a martial thing way before they were offered as a spell. Maybe as high level maneuvers, stances or whatever.

 

[Stalker0]

I think you also have to give some lip service to the other pillars as well.

at high levels, it’s often not the combat dominance of casters that’s the problem, so much as it’s the “cinematic dominance”.

before the fight even starts, casters are moving the party around with flies and teleports, divining what should be their next move, buffing themselves with power...etc
this is important. The fighter can be amazing in combat, but when the dm is spending extra hours with the casters figuring out where they are teleporting you, what divinations they are casting, what rituals they are using ahead of time...that’s a lot of screen time the fighter isn’t getting.

now if the caster wasn’t in combat that would be one thing..but they are. I have dmed a fair number of high level adventures (15-20), and I have to spend a much greater amount of time with the casters...because the unfortunate truth is...high levels casters are the ones not just shaping the fight...they are shaping the game.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

at high levels, it’s often not the combat dominance of casters that’s the problem, so much as it’s the “cinematic dominance”.

Right!

Even after the dice hit the table, even if the fighter deal 30% more damage with its weapons that the wizard who only got 2 enemies with its fireball, the highlight of the fight will still be the big flashy spell, no matter was the actual end result.

I'd like it if the players and the DM had the same face at the table when a fighter uses X feature that when a sorcerer opens the fight with a fireball. Na saying they should have the same numerical result, but the cool factor should be on par.

 

[Minigiant]

I think those numbers shows that, like it or not, there's a limit on how well you can smash your weapon in the face of a monster without the use of supernatural effects. So, high level fighter should either all-in supernatural/mystical/wuxia/anime or stop their progression earlier and have spare time over 20 to dabble in a bunch of other stuff.

I don't think that there is a limit on smashing. My belief is that the limits are the game system we use for simplicity's sake is too low for what the fanbase wants.

For example, the high level 5e fighter is the Deadly Reaper Fighter. It's a valid interpretation of a high level fighter. It's a man in armor with a weapon. Very little supernature. But if you get into range of it's attacks, you take a load of damage. No cutting fireballs in half. No flight or super jump. He or she just chops the dragon to bits and hopes that it can survive until it's done.

Now if that isn't your interpetation of a high level fight and you think more Hercules or Cu Cuhulainn, Well then you have to let your fighter have 30 STR and 30 CON before items to make the Demigod Fighter.

Or if your fighter has mind so sharp it can shrug off charms and fear, you need to give him or her immunity or save bonuses for the Mastermind Fighter.

But if you stay in the game's base limitations, your fighter will only be able to grow into the standard blender warrior. Nothing wrong with a blender, be people have to accept that without blantant supernatural effect, expansion of the fighter's physical or mental ability, or an automatic resource gain, the high level fighter is a blender or a machine gun.

 

[FrogReaver]

Then what do you have in mind? If its gonna be powerful, thematic and not already covered by a spell effect, the design space starts to be a little restrained?

My argument is that Steelwind strike, Snare, Zephy strike, Conjure Volley etc should have beed a martial thing way before they were offered as a spell. Maybe as high level maneuvers, stances or whatever.

just as I thought. The part I took issue with as too magical was the charm/x per day and ask 3 questions. And all you are going on about here is combat maneuvers.

You could replicate nearly every effect in those combat spells and it still wouldn’t change anything. I don’t have a problem with mundane things doing mundane things and being as strong as spells that do them. I have a problem when the effect is too magical.

so a fighter that uses an ability and attacks many foes he moves near. Fine, not particularly powerful but fine. A fighter that charms someone is a different story.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think those numbers shows that, like it or not, there's a limit on how well you can smash your weapon in the face of a monster without the use of supernatural effects. So, high level fighter should either all-in supernatural/mystical/wuxia/anime or stop their progression earlier and have spare time over 20 to dabble in a bunch of other stuff.

The other part of the problem of the fighter is that the limit of "how well you can smash your weapon in the face of a monster without supernatural effects" should be sword through the eye = a one hit kill on a dragon not "hitting an ogre as hard as mathematically possible three or four times (59hp IIIRC in 5e) before the giant sack of hit points goes down.

D&D's use of hit points means that not only do they not have anything like the control or options of mages, they might as well be wielding boffer swords rather than actual sharpened steel.