What is Vancian magic and does DnD have it?

[pawsplay]

Well, that's just it. What is "gratuitous?" At one point, one of Vance's characters realizes he's being fed the flesh of something human-like. It just wouldn't be the same story without a group of weirdoes breeding humans as if they were cattle. I know people who consider the violence in Kill Bill to be gratuitous, but what would be left if you subtracted it? The protagonist of A Clockwork Orange is "not a hero." He's pretty darn evil.

You are welcome to make the claim that rape never has a role in escapist fiction, but I think it's a difficult position to take. And you would end up eliminating several works of Terry Pratchett, Robin McKinley's Deerskin, and most versions of the King Arthur stories.

 

[Cadfan]

He's not making the claim that rape never has a place in fiction. Apropos of Nothing prominently features a rape scene.

There's good presentation and bad presentation. Vance's isn't the best. Vance's work, particularly the violence and evil, is quirky and wryly humorous. His prose is great at that. Absolutely amazing with an almost unique style. And that's what makes the quirky, wryly humorous rape so incongruous and jolting.

I know that Vance isn't doing anything that hasn't been done in mythology- creating a clever, crooked protagonist, one that readers will both root for when he succeeds and cheer when he gets his comeuppance. And I know that having that character's clever schemes include clever rape schemes isn't actually new, its been done in mythology before.

Its just... really jarring and incongruous to the modern reader. I think it really dates his work.

 

[pawsplay]

Modern reader? Dude, the man is still alive.

 

[Cadfan]

Dying Earth is from 1950.

 

[Starfox]

I too found the rape-and-trade-to slavery scene to be over the top. It is presented as something commonplace, an everyday occurrence for Cugel. To me as a reader it was anything but, and treating it so lightly was pretty shocking.

But I think that's the point. It establishes Cugel's personality and the bleak world he lives in. At the same time, the evil is not actually hidden. The author does NOT use verbal sleight of hand to make us accept the rape as a reasonable action; there is a kind of alienation between reader and character trough this scene. Cugel might think this is nothing special, but the reader is not led to think so. The comparison to A Clockwork Orange is apt for me, tough that work is much more obvious about it.

I think this is part of what makes Vance into literature and not just casual reading.

Then I must admit that Vance's portrayal of women is pretty weak. To his defense, he never really tries; his books portray few females and none in leading roles.

PS: The treadjack is ok by me as OP - the original subject was pretty much exhausted. DS.

 

[Umbran]

He's not making the claim that rape never has a place in fiction. Apropos of Nothing prominently features a rape scene.

If I recall the series, there are actually two such scenes. The protagonist, however, does not commit the crime (spoiler:

Spoiler

he is the product of one, and he's the victim of the other

). So, no, I am not at al saying it has no place in fiction. It is part of life, and therefore should be something that gets talked about.

The claim I'm making is that this tool is (and has been for the history of the fantasy/sci-fi genre) one that ought be used carefully, and that, "He's not supposed to be a hero. He's morally grey," does not make a good excuse for failing to do so.

IMHO, of course.

 

[Hussar]

/snip And you would end up eliminating several works of Terry Pratchett, /snip

Dur? What rape scenes are there in Terry Pratchett? I've read pretty much every Discworld novel, and a number of his YA fiction as well. I'm drawing a complete blank as to a single rape scene in any Terry Pratchett book.

 

[Gentlegamer]

In a DnD context, I submit that "Vancian" means "based on daily uses of spells, generally prepared in advance". You do NOT need to read the Vance books to understand this, and in fact reading the books might confuse you, as the magic there is quite different.

AD&D magic was a synthesis of Vance's mnemonic magic (spell memorization) and the sympathetic magic (somatic and material components) from Camp and Pratt's "Harold Shea" stories ("The Roaring Trumpet," et al.).

OD&D magic was wholly mnenomic, and closest to pure "Vancian."

It wasn't used as a way to represent a broad category of source material magic; it was thought to make a very playable and manageable spell-casting system for the game.

 

[Gentlegamer]

2. Not a fan of the Dying Earth books. Too much casual rape. I know, written in an earlier time, main character isn't a "hero" by any stretch of the imagination, prose is still excellent... but about the point where Cugel sells one woman off to be raped with only a twinge of guilt that he rapidly ignores, rapes another, and then shrugs and walks away when she's drowned as a result of his own actions, I quit reading. Technically neither woman was an absolute saint, and maybe I'm hypocritical for not putting the book down after all the casual murders Cugel commits, but I am what I am, I guess.

As you note, both women had done harm or attempted to do harm to Cugel. Characters that "pull no tricks" on Cugel fare much better. Cugel is a great example of a character of Neutral alignment.

 

[Cadfan]

As you note, both women had done harm or attempted to do harm to Cugel. Characters that "pull no tricks" on Cugel fare much better. Cugel is a great example of a character of Neutral alignment.

I'm not sure what to say to that.