What is wrong with Epic Material?
- Thread starter Razz
- Start date
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Plane Sailing said:
AMEN! Epic characters in literature are defined more by their deeds than their abilities. Though their abilities allow them to perform such deeds, they're rarely the focus of the story -- rather, they're simple plot devices that allow the aforementioned deeds to happen. The Epic Level Handbook took the opposite tact and suffered for it, both mechanically and conceptually.
Yes, I DM a long running, though seldom played, epic campaign using the ELH in which the PCs are currently in the level 25/26 range. Others have already touched on the major problems here, but for me the biggest is that the monster's abilities continue stacking on in the same fashion as they always have, while the PC's attacks and saves stagnate. We frequently end up with situations where the monster's saves are so good, they will only ever fail on a 1, even if the wizard with the absurdly high intelligence whacks him with a 9th level spell. Similarly, the DCs on the monster's powers get so ridiculous, I find myself frequently house ruling them down just to give our guys a fighting chance. And of course, the monsters practically never miss. Armor class becomes increasingly irrelevant, as the bad guy's attack bonus far outstrips the power of the equipment the characters are able to find, buy, or make.
Beyond this, combats tend to take far too long to resolve. Too many dice to roll and too many conditions, buffs, items, and special powers to keep track of. I love the sorts of sweeping, world shaking stories that epic campaigns lend themselves to, and my players love being able to run characters that can make archmages wet themselves; but I sometimes wonder whether it's worth the hassle. There needs to be a way to streamline the system so we can spend less time rolling dice and looking things up and more time on the other aspects of the game.
Beyond this, combats tend to take far too long to resolve. Too many dice to roll and too many conditions, buffs, items, and special powers to keep track of. I love the sorts of sweeping, world shaking stories that epic campaigns lend themselves to, and my players love being able to run characters that can make archmages wet themselves; but I sometimes wonder whether it's worth the hassle. There needs to be a way to streamline the system so we can spend less time rolling dice and looking things up and more time on the other aspects of the game.
MoogleEmpMog
First Post
Razz said:
Absolutely. When you run year-long campaigns every other week and simply declare that the characters level after each session, you brush up against the Epic rules on a regular basis.
The need for a faster, stabler system after a year of such rapid and regular mechanical advancement is a big reason why I don't run D&D anymore. High-level D&D is too slow and cumbersome for me, especially with a large group, and Epic just makes it worse both in-game and during adventure prep - especially since there are few, if any, stat blocks to crib and rename, and the Spycraft NPC generation tables cap out at 20th level.
I have no problem running ELH-style Epic: spectacular powers, huge numbers, kingdom-destroying spells and mountain-cutting swords, battling gods and cyclopean horrors from the depths of pre-human antiquity. All of that is very cool.
But if the game is going to go there, I a) don't want to start players off as 1st level McOrdinaries and b) want a system that runs Epic, cinematic combat in a reasonably quick manner, ideally no faster or not much faster than it runs pre-Epic combat (if pre-Epic combat is even an option in the system(.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hey all! 
apologies for joining the party late, been sickly this past week and prioritising responses.
Anyway, I don't profess to have all the answers, but I do think I have solutions to the majority of epic problems.
As such I have started an epic advice coulmn on my website.
www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon5.htm
You can either post questions/problems in this thread, or the following thread over at the Eternity Publishing forums:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=197088
Obviously its early days yet, but if I can get something like a list of the top 20 epic gaming problems it could turn into a useful online gaming resource for epic gamers.
apologies for joining the party late, been sickly this past week and prioritising responses.
Anyway, I don't profess to have all the answers, but I do think I have solutions to the majority of epic problems.
As such I have started an epic advice coulmn on my website.
www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon5.htm
You can either post questions/problems in this thread, or the following thread over at the Eternity Publishing forums:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=197088
Obviously its early days yet, but if I can get something like a list of the top 20 epic gaming problems it could turn into a useful online gaming resource for epic gamers.
shadow
First Post
I really didn't have a huge problem with the ELH per se. Still there are sections that could have been refined and improved.
Epic Progression - This was the most disappointing part of the rules. I felt that classes should have gotten new abilities beyond 20th level. Also, the epic level BAB and Saving Throws tended to make the progression of all the classes the same after 20th level.
Epic Prestige Classes - Great idea, poorly executed. None of the prestige classes seemed all that epic. What was with the Union Sentinel; you spend your first 20 levels working up to be a town watchman!?
Epic Skills - Great ideas - being able to swim up waterfalls, fight standing on your mount, walking on water -these are the things that myths and legends are made of. A lot of the epic skill examples seemed straight out of a wuxia movie.
Epic feats - I loved this section. Many of the feats were high powered, but had appropriate prerequisites.
Epic Monsters - I liked the monsters. Many, such as the abominations, practically were adventure hooks in themselves.
Epic Magic items - I didn't care too much for this section. Many of the items were "more powerful than the DMG items" but not artifacts. I wanted more unique items and artifacts, not just weapons that gave higher bonuses.
City of Union - Worst part of the book. Epic characters should be unique. I hate the idea of a city where everyone is epic level. This just makes epic play more of the same. Epic characters should be interacting with the gods, going on world saving adventures, not stuck in some city where they are everyone else's peers.
Epic Progression - This was the most disappointing part of the rules. I felt that classes should have gotten new abilities beyond 20th level. Also, the epic level BAB and Saving Throws tended to make the progression of all the classes the same after 20th level.
Epic Prestige Classes - Great idea, poorly executed. None of the prestige classes seemed all that epic. What was with the Union Sentinel; you spend your first 20 levels working up to be a town watchman!?
Epic Skills - Great ideas - being able to swim up waterfalls, fight standing on your mount, walking on water -these are the things that myths and legends are made of. A lot of the epic skill examples seemed straight out of a wuxia movie.
Epic feats - I loved this section. Many of the feats were high powered, but had appropriate prerequisites.
Epic Monsters - I liked the monsters. Many, such as the abominations, practically were adventure hooks in themselves.
Epic Magic items - I didn't care too much for this section. Many of the items were "more powerful than the DMG items" but not artifacts. I wanted more unique items and artifacts, not just weapons that gave higher bonuses.
City of Union - Worst part of the book. Epic characters should be unique. I hate the idea of a city where everyone is epic level. This just makes epic play more of the same. Epic characters should be interacting with the gods, going on world saving adventures, not stuck in some city where they are everyone else's peers.
Arkham
First Post
Razz said:
Yes. I am currently running an epic campaign, average party level 26 now.
I ditched the epic BAB/Save progression, and just extended the normal class progression ad-inifinitum. This works fine.
The epic feats are a few gems amongst a load of crap. Most are just more of the same, more +'s. A few are truely broken, like Ignore Material Components. And a few are actually inspired, or at least unique.
Most of the epic skill-uses my PCs don't use, as they haven't loaded up with skill-boosting items. So aside from the spellcraft check to ID items ( now superfluous with the MIC rules ), this has gotten little use. But these, at least, seem cool, just out of reach at lower epic levels without magic items. But then, magic items could perform those effects, so what's the difference?
I like most of the epic monsters, but the CRs are screwed up totally. Considering the ELH was written for 3.0, this is unsurprising.
But the epic spells blow. I've given the spellcasters free access to epic spells without requiring a feat. But they have not taken advantage of it. No loss there.
I've also freely extended spellcasters spells/day based on their lower level class's progression. I see no reason for the artifical de-powering for the levels that should be em-powering.
I know I've tinkered with it, and so its not RAW, but everything that has been broken about the game has been things from the RAW. The number of options, immunities, etc have bogged the game down where we're lucky to finish a single fight in a night. Next time I want to run an 'epic' game, I'll just create an 'epic' setting and plot in a lower-level game.
