What is wrong with race class limits?

[frankthedm]

IMO, high level DnD characters do sorta resemble superheroes.

Including a semi-hidden point buy power system [GP & Magic Items].

 

[Nifft]

I don't know, it is your universe, why did you keep them limited?

Exactly. Limits should be imposed by the setting, not the core rules.

It'd be nice if 4e had sidebars on "making your setting..." which describe the sort of thing you can do to add flavor without breaking balance.

Cheers, -- N

 

[frankthedm]

Exactly. Limits should be imposed by the setting, not the core rules.

Limits are just fine in the core rules. The DM is free to take them out.

 

[Quasqueton]

Just so everyone has the numbers for the discussion:

PC race/class restrictions and level limits from the AD&D1 PHB

Dwarf
Cleric - no
Druid - no
Fighter - 9 (need 18 Strength)
Paladin - no
Ranger - no
Magic-User - no
Illusionist - no
Thief - unlimited
Assassin - 9
Monk - no
Multiclasses: fighter/thief

Elf
Cleric - no
Druid - no
Fighter - 7 (need 18 Strength)
Paladin - no
Ranger - no
Magic-User - 11 (need 18 Intelligence)
Illusionist - no
Thief - unlimited
Assassin - 10
Monk - no
Multiclasses: fighter/magic-user, fighter/thief, magic-user/thief, fighter/magic-user/thief

Gnome
Cleric - no
Druid - no
Fighter - 6 (need 18 Strength)
Paladin - no
Ranger - no
Magic-User - no
Illusionist - 7 (need 18 Intelligence and Dexterity)
Thief - unlimited
Assassin - 8
Monk - no
Multiclasses: fighter/illusionist, fighter/thief, illusionist/thief

Half-Elf
Cleric - 5
Druid - unlimited
Fighter - 8 (need 18 Strength)
Paladin - no
Ranger - 8 (need 18 Strength)
Magic-User - 8 (need 18 Intelligence)
Illusionist - no
Thief - unlimited
Assassin - 11
Monk - no
Multiclasses: cleric/fighter, cleric/ranger, cleric/magic-user, fighter/magic-user, fighter/thief, magic-user/thief, cleric/fighter/magic-user, fighter/magic-user/thief

Halfling
Cleric - no
Druid - no
Fighter - 6 (need 18 Strength*)
Paladin - no
Ranger - no
Magic-User - no
Illusionist - no
Thief - unlimited
Assassin - no
Monk - no
Multiclasses: fighter/thief
* Halflings have -1 Strength.

Half-Orc
Cleric - 4
Druid - no
Fighter - 10
Paladin - no
Ranger - no
Magic-User - no
Illusionist - no
Thief - 8 (need 18 Dexterity)
Assassin - unlimited
Monk - no
Multiclasses: cleric/fighter, cleric/thief, cleric/assassin, fighter/thief, fighter/assassin

Human
All classes unlimited
Multiclassing: none


Quasqueton

 

[XO]

They Sucked...

...as my players found out when they achieved 12th level and beyond...

So we lifted them.

And what's so great about equitable races anyway?
What greatness did humans achieve in LotR ????

Why shouldn't or wouldn't elves be way better than humans? A little more ponderous perhaps, but why not better?

Whiel we're at it, why would females actually be as strong as males? How many races of animals do we see this in? A few insects... A mantis apraying and a widow ablacking...

Yes, I CAN be a nuisance...

 

[JVisgaitis]

Just so everyone has the numbers for the discussion.

Are these from 1e? Wow, looking at these again they look so... bizarre.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Why the hell can almost every race be unlimited in Thief?

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Why the hell can almost every race be unlimited in Thief?

Because larceny is a universal profession?

(I was going to say because there's no prostitute class?)

 

[dcas]

Exactly. Limits should be imposed by the setting, not the core rules.

Then lets take out height, weight, and age restrictions, too, from the core rules, and impose them in the settings.

Saying that it's not in the nature of a dwarf to be a magic-user is no different than saying that a dwarf must be (for example) between 4 and 5 feet tall, or that, on average, he lives for 300 years. It's part of what a dwarf is.

 

[EvilPheemy]

As it has been mentioned, 1st ed AD&D is based off the campaigns of the writers, mainly Arenson and Gygax. In those games, 10th level was nearly epic in and of itself. 15th level was almost unreachable. Look at those early modules. "High Level" modules like Tomb of Horrors and Queen of the Demonweb Pits was reccomended for parties of 10th to 14th level. (I think in his first appearance in print, Mordenkainen was listed as a 14th level wizard, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I have no rationale as to why the 1st ed books put charts for advancement past 15th level. I can only think that the writers were acknowledging that sooner or later their audience would be playing games where their characters were reaching levels of 25+.

In an environment where characters were expected to retire at around level 14, the level restrictions weren't so harsh. An elf limited to 11th level magic-user would most likely be multiclassed as a fighter, thus said elf would be a F/M-U of 7/11 level adventuring with the 14th level human.

Except for theives. But in 1st ed (pre Unearthed Arcana era) most theiving abilities were at their maximum effectiveness at 9th level.

What always broke my suspension of disbelief in those days was the contradiction of how races who apparantly gifted humanity with the secrets of magic and warfare (Elves and Dwarves, respectively) were prevented from realizing the true potential of those secrets. Even the wizest and most proficient Elven Magic-User couldn't cast Permenancy. How in the Hells did all those magical Elven goodies ever get made?