What LA is this?

[Zimbel16]

What about skill points, saving throws, hit points? These are all part of the character as well. A fighter is poor in some of these areas to begin with but isnt that also an important part of the comparison? Especially since the human fighters skill points will be much higher. Couldnt the same basically be said for a halfling versus a fighter? A person going for a big weapon fighting build would be smart to always choose the human over the halfling. It would seem that your examples are only showing part of the picture and while the conclusion may be correct it is hard to tell with just this.

Skill points (assume 12 is put into Int):
Human Fighter 3 : 6*4 = 24
Ogre : 5 * 2 = 10

On the other hand, I haven't met a player who took Fighter for the skills.

Saving throws (Assume 10 is put into Wis, no relevant magic items):
Human Fighter 3 :
Fort +2 +3 = +5
Ref +1 +1 = +2
Will +0 +1 = +1

Ogre :
Fort +3 +3 = +6
Ref +0 +0 = +0
Will +0 +0 = +0

Note that if the Ogre continues in Fighter levels, their Fort save will shoot up by another +2 imediately, whereas their other saves will be flat for another two levels.
Note that the comparison of S->M is not identicle to that from M->L; a large character has a much better reach (which is not an issue between S/M humanoids).

Frankly, I feel that the extra 58% damage in melee makes up for a lot of problems. I'd try again with LV 4 and 5 PCs.

 

[Eltharon]

Well, lets compare my ogre to a half ogre (+1 LA) from SS.
The half ogre has 2 points more cha
3 more natural armor

10 ft less speed
4 less intimidate (not that it really matters)

And doesnt have to blow two levels in "giant"

without the bonus feat, my ogre looks like LA+1, doesnt it?

EDIT: Y'know, maybe I should just use the half ogre inself and change the name...

 

[Arkhandus]

My calculations would put it at a +1 Level Adjustment, but I agree that despite that, it'd still be superior to a human fighter in power, due to the significant Strength boost along with being size Large. With the advantages stacked in favor of this Ogre in melee combat, I'd say it needs a bit of toning down/readjusting of where its power lies.

Make these ogres clumsier, a bit shorter and broader but still Large. -4 Dex instead of -2. Reduce their base speed to 30 feet to reflect their stumpier legs/body, worse clumsiness, and such, and slightly lessen their advantages for melee (being able to close in or escape more rapidly). Reduce the Charisma penalty to -2, rendering the ogres a bit more social (at least amongst their own kind), free-thinking, and not as terribly poor in matters requiring force of personality, such as sorcery. Give them a trait called Minor Mystic Affinity, and say that it allows them to count their racial hit dice towards their effective caster level for purposes of spell effects, caster level checks, dispelling, and meeting the prerequisites of feats or items or prestige classes (not for spells known/per day or anything like that though). Give them a -2 racial penalty on Reflex saves to further reflect their clumsiness.

I would suggest adding a restriction that forces them to choose, for their racial bonus feat, only a feat that has no prerequisites (meaning, they could choose stuff like Iron Will, Improved Initiative, Run, Skill Focus, or the like, but not Power Attack and its ilk).

 

[Arkhandus]

I'll add that the half-ogre is unbalanced in my experience; I've seen about 3 or 4 half-ogre PCs in play (almost certain it was 4) for several combats alongside other melee-types (such as human and hobgoblin fighters, half-orc barbarians, and such).

All of them totally outperformed their non-ogrish comrades in melee, and hardly suffered any disadvantage (they were only a teeny bit lower in HP and Reflex saves and ranged attack rolls). Warrior types are generally poor in non-combat activities, so compared to the other warriors in the group, they weren't much worse in skills and such (they all sucked about equally in skills ).

Half-ogres are also too powerful according to my calculations. They'd have a +2 Level Adjustment in my campaigns if I ever allowed them otherwise 'as written'. They might possibly be a tad on the weak end of LA +2, but they're too strong for just LA +1.

Remember that half-ogres have no racial hit dice, which are themselves part of the balancing factor for normal ogres and your version of ogres. Racial hit dice are weaker than class hit dice except for certain creature types (i.e. Dragon HD are quite strong, and Outsider HD aren't half-bad either).

Of course, your particular version of ogres get more benefits with their racial HD than normal (the darkvision, low-light vision, and numerous proficiencies), but they're still a minor disadvantage for your version of ogres, so they still contribute a bit towards balancing the race's benefits.

Also, and I really cannot stress this enough, Savage Species is broken and it sucks. It has several good ideas in it, to be sure, but a lot of it is poorly executed and unbalanced (not necessarily overpowered in most cases; at least a decent amount of it is underpowered; but several bits and pieces of Savage Species are terribly inaccurate, or completely eliminate some of the important drawbacks of various races, or simply jack up the power of some racial abilities too much). As I have and will continue to mention, Wizards of the Coast sets most racial Level Adjustments a bit too high, for the sake of making core races more palatable to powergamers. WotC wants the core races to be dominant and other races are only really around as options for bored players, who don't mind being weaker than the rest of the party for the sake of having a unique character who might be a fun change of pace. While this may be all well and dandy for certain campaigns, it is not at all balanced for creating custom races that aren't meant to be inferior and rare choices of character.

You almost certainly won't find a single Player's Handbook race, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting race, or Eberron Campaign Setting race that actually adheres to the guidelines in Savage Species. The Savage Species guidelines encourage giving 1 or more points of Level Adjustment for just about every racial feature that isn't virtually insignificant.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Looks like a +1 LA to me.

 

[Eltharon]

Yeah, I know what you mean about half ogre characters, or even orcs. I really don't know why anyone would play a half orc over an orc for a fighter. Unless they really wanted +2 wisdom.

Having said that, I'm going to drop low light vision, as its rather pointless, and maybe make the bonus feat "Toughness".

Comparing it to a bugbear (rather then 1/2 ogre), that gives ogres (in comparison) -4 dex, -2 int and -2 cha and 2 points less of natural armor in exchange for toughness, +2 str and reach (and they don't have to spend another hit die in a monster class)

That seems balanced to me (maybe even give ogres only -2 cha)

 

[FrostedMini1337]

Yeah, I'd say the LA is closer to +1 if you name a specific bonus feat. (Endurance comes to mind. Makes Diehard within striking distance, and an orge raging past death= sweet)

 

[Arkhandus]

I do not think that makes any difference, Eltharon (assuming you mean that the only changes you'll make to the original version of your race are the feat and vision changes). The race will still be much better than standard races as a melee tank, with no notable drawbacks.

Also, Bugbears are Medium while Ogres are Large. Large means more than just +5 feet of reach. It means bigger weapons, more damage. It also means better grappling/tripping/disarming/etc. This stuff is only partially compensated for by the few drawbacks of Large size. There are also some very-rare circumstances where being bigger is even more helpful; some creatures that can Swallow Whole or whatnot are limited to eating stuff no more than Medium size, frex.

 

[KuKu]

Skill points (assume 12 is put into Int):
Human Fighter 3 : 6*4 = 24
Ogre : 5 * 2 = 10

On the other hand, I haven't met a player who took Fighter for the skills.

Saving throws (Assume 10 is put into Wis, no relevant magic items):
Human Fighter 3 :
Fort +2 +3 = +5
Ref +1 +1 = +2
Will +0 +1 = +1

Ogre :
Fort +3 +3 = +6
Ref +0 +0 = +0
Will +0 +0 = +0

Note that if the Ogre continues in Fighter levels, their Fort save will shoot up by another +2 imediately, whereas their other saves will be flat for another two levels.
Note that the comparison of S->M is not identicle to that from M->L; a large character has a much better reach (which is not an issue between S/M humanoids).

Frankly, I feel that the extra 58% damage in melee makes up for a lot of problems. I'd try again with LV 4 and 5 PCs.

It looks like the human is essentially guaranteed to have at least double the skill points of the Ogreling and have better saving throws in reflex and will. With this in mind and assuming that the bonus feat will be something like endurance and looking back at your other posts numbers and assuming a reduction in strength of two points we have the Ogreling doing about three points more on average per hit, being worse at social situations, being worse at skills in general, not being able to be a ranged combatant for the most part, being behind in iterative attacks about 2/5 of the time, and having the bonuses of being large which can be good and bad depending. At that point you have a race which is slightly better in one field and much worse in pretty much all of the others. That sounds pretty balanced overall I guess. Could you do your suggested writeup of a higher level version with these changes and see how it compares please?

 

[Arkhandus]

Do not forget, Kuku, that Ogres are best at being fighters and barbarians, classes which already suck at pretty much everything but combat.

When the party's meat shield can only manage a +4 on Diplomacy checks at low level with a decent Cha and some cross-class ranks, the Ogre isn't going to be all that much worse at +1, +2, or +3 on such checks from lower Cha and fewer skill points to spare. Nobody plays a fighter or barbarian to be a great diplomat or silver-tongued devil, be they Human, Elf, Ogre, or otherwise.

An Ogre isn't all that terrible a ranged combatant (after all, with their greater strength and size, they can use composite longbows that are nearly twice as powerful as a human's composite longbow). Their Dex penalty and size penalty on attack rolls will not be that significant if they advance as a fighter or barbarian, nor if they use one of their feats for Weapon Focus (composite longbow).

Size Large is only a drawback in very few situations, which are only common in a few sorts of campaigns (like ones where the party crawls through goblin/kobold tunnels/dungeons all the time, in which case, the DM wouldn't even be able to allow an Ogre PC because they'd never be able to go anywhere with the party). And besides, Reduce (Reduce Person in 3.5) is a 1st-level spell that can easily shrink Ogres down when they need to squeeze through tight passages (surely the party wizard can spare a meager 1st-level spell slot for his all-important meat shield to stay in front of him at all times?).

If an Ogre needs to sneak, he can get the party's wizard to cast Invisibility on him; his size/race do not impose any specific Move Silently penalties (though the Dex penalty is a very minor indirect hit to MS), only a Hide penalty. If the Ogre fighter is anything like the Human fighter, he's walking around in clanky full-plate and hauling around a massive great sword anyway, so it's not like he's going to be expected to be any more silent than the Human fighter when the party needs stealth; they wouldn't have to compensate for it any moreso than they would for a Human fighter.

An Ogre who plays to their strengths, as a typical member of their kind would (being brutish and violent), is going to outperform the party's core-race warrior-types, but at least an Ogre with slightly less significant focus in their racial traits will be less likely to make the rest of the party's warrior-types feel useless and inadequate/redundant. It's already a given that Ogres are going to be less effective skill-users and magic-users, being less intelligent and charismatic than Humans, but that doesn't affect how much they're going to totally own the combat scene if their racial benefits aren't slightly readjusted to make them only 'moderately better some of the time, rather subpar the rest of the time'. People like me would still want to play a quirky Ogre bard or somesuch fun/silly concept, but while the race would be absolutely fine for us and our purposes, it would still be too much when used in a combat-heavy game by someone who chooses to play a somewhat-or-significantly more optimized Ogre character. Thus the need for a bit of redistributing of the race's benefits and drawbacks if wanting to make it a reasonable LA +1 race that doesn't overshadow the other warrior types 80% of the time.