What level is appropriate to encounter save or die effects?

[Glyfair]

I was wandering through a monster book recently and noticed a large number of save or die effects at what I considered low levels. These weren't necessarily immediate (more of the "save or die in 1d6 rounds"), but still pretty deadly. Then, in another recent thread, I noticed someone who felt that a game without save or die effects wasn't challenging or "properly designed D&D" at even a low level.

I'm curious what the general feeling is here towards them. When do you feel it's appropriate for characters to encounter effects that require their death to hinge on a single die roll regardless of their hit points?

 

[Montague68]

I was wandering through a monster book recently and noticed a large number of save or die effects at what I considered low levels. These weren't necessarily immediate (more of the "save or die in 1d6 rounds"), but still pretty deadly. Then, in another recent thread, I noticed someone who felt that a game without save or die effects wasn't challenging or "properly designed D&D" at even a low level.

I'm curious what the general feeling is here towards them. When do you feel it's appropriate for characters to encounter effects that require their death to hinge on a single die roll?

My $.02

I'll first use them when the party has access to resurrection/raise dead spells, and even then sparingly. Once the party gets access to their own save or die effects like disintegrate, FoD and so on in a high level campaign then they're fair game.

 

[Storyteller01]

*bump*


I'm running a relatively low 'regain life' campaign, and would also like to hear everyones input.

 

[ForceUser]

Any level is appropriate, with the caveat that lower level characters and newer players should be given fair warning, either through contextual clues, admonitions from NPCs, or out-of-character advice from the DM and other players.

For example, I once ran a dungeon adventure for a 2nd-level group of characters in which their final objective, a holy relic, sat on holy ground with a destruction spell tied to it. They knew this before they even set foot in the dungeon. The fact that one of the players chose to enter the area without giving the password, instantly provoking a a save or die situation, certainly wasn't my bad as DM. I feel no remorse for laughing when the character imploded.

 

[Sejs]

Around 10th or so.

Basically around the same point at which the players also have a reasonable chance to cope with them, should they so choose.

 

[Umbran]

To a large extent, level is irrelevant, because the ability to deal with them is not particularly level-dependant. The only real break-point in there is, as Gearjammer notes, access to bringing the dead back. Other than that, save-or-die is roughly the same for 10th level as it is for 20th, given appropriately chosen DCs for the level.

 

[Glyfair]

Just for a bit more information, the book was Tome of Horrors. There was a Basidrond that exuded spores which required any opponent in a line to save or die in 1d6 rounds unless remove disease was cast one them, and it was CR 5. I believe there was another lower CR fungus creature with a save or die effect as well.

I understand that part of the design principle was to stick as close to the original creature as possible, rather than designing with the current design paradigms in effect (a much trickier proposition). However, this ability just seemed out-of-line on a monster that is unlikely to be a main encounter. How often will a 5th level party have multipe remove disease spells available?

 

[Merkuri]

Personally, I don't like save-or-die effects because I don't like having a character's death hang on the result of a single roll. If I could hang the character's fate on something other than that single die roll, then I think save-or-die effects are acceptable.

If the characters had fairly easy access to resurrection or other return-to-life spells (meaning they could afford it or one of the PCs can cast it) then the player doesn't necessarily have to roll up a new character because he failed the one save. Similarly, if the players had enough warning and a chance to make themselves immune or find away around the effect (like ForceUser's scenario where the PCs knew about the holy ground and were given a password) then their fate also depends on their brainpower, rather than just that one roll.

 

[frankthedm]

As soon as possible. If they can't handle dealing with medusae, basalisks and such, they won't be apreciative when Death ward saves them against bodaks and the like.

 

[lukelightning]

Level one, with advance warning. As in "the pool of lava is obviously dangerous to swim in.." or "in front of the glittering idol with are several smouldering skeletons, obvously struck down by the infamous skeletonizing curse that befalls all despoilers of the Kadavra's shrines.."

The first literal "save or die" spell I can think of is phantasmal killer, so I'd say around level seven (though PK does give two saves) since it's a 4th level spell.

There are many effects which are effectively "save or die" such as hold person while a barbarian with a heavy pick readies a coup-de-gras, etc. but they generally give the PC's a fighting chance even with a failed save.

I tend to ameliorate "SoD" effects. If it's a death effect, maybe it's actually a "dying" effect, that knocks you down to -5. If it's petrification, then by a happy coincidence medusa venom or basilisk horn or cockatrice bile or something can be mixed into an alchemical anti-petrification formula...it might take some time but at least your character isn't out for good.