D&D 3E/3.5 What level would the 1E Shape Change be in 3.5E

[Edena_of_Neith]

The original Shape Change, 9th level in 1E, enabled your PC to become any being short of a demi-god, archdevil, demon lord, or a creature of whom only one existed.
Your PC gained all of the powers of the creature form assumed, except only those based on the mind and what is now called spell resistance. And the interpretation of 'mental powers' I always interpreted in the player's favor, if there was an uncertainty.
Your PC could change forms from round to round. Your PC could also become any non-living object up to (very large) colossal size.

Thus, your PC could become a death knight (and gain his Power Words Kill, Blind, and Stun), then a nymph (seeing her meant save or die, unlimited range, line of sight), then a titan (I mean, a TITAN - a being hundreds of feet tall), then a tarrasque (including it's unkillability unless 3 Wishes were used), then a type 6 demon, then a solar (at the extreme limit of the spell's power), and so on.

Obviously, this was a powerful spell, to understate matters.

Assume for a second that 'regular spells' go past 9th level in 3.5. (Not metamagicked, just regular spells.)
Assume they keep going up in level ... as far as the level that this Shapechange spell would be.

What level, in 3.5, would this awesomely powerful spell - the 1E Shapechange as *I* am describing it - be?

 

[ChimericDream]

Well, it sounds like the original Shape Change spell is a more powerful version of the Shift Form salient divine ability. Considering that requires Divine Rank 6 or higher, I'd say that the original Shape Change wouldn't be something I'd allow at all in a game... so I chose "23rd level or higher".

 

[billd91]

Is this a trick question? Shapechange is much the same in 3.5 as it was in 1E, with the exception that it has become more carefully defined to be non-unique creatures (thus no tarrasque, which would have reasonably been barred from the 1E spell as well based on the comparison with "singular dragons") and defines the abilities not involving intelligence as being extraordinary and supernatural (no spell-like abilities).

 

[AllisterH]

Is this a trick question? Shapechange is much the same in 3.5 as it was in 1E, with the exception that it has become more carefully defined to be non-unique creatures (thus no tarrasque, which would have reasonably been barred from the 1E spell as well based on the comparison with "singular dragons") and defines the abilities not involving intelligence as being extraordinary and supernatural (no spell-like abilities).

I think that was the difference.

I always considered spellcasting as the only ability that the 1E shapechange couldn't duplicate. The spell like abilities however were fair game which is a significant step up from the 3E version.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

This is not a trick question.

I used the 1st edition Shape Change as *the* definitive example of the overwhelming power of 9th level spells.

 

[monboesen]

That is a question easily answered.


No spell, regardless of level, should dole out the power and versatility of the 1ed shapechange.

Effectively the spell is only limited by the depth and breadth of the players monster knowledge. Adding to that problem the spell would be a gamestopper, relying on players rifling through monster books finding the perfect form for the particular situation.


However the existing polymorph and shapechange spells share many of the same problems and should IMO be removed from the game as well.

 

[Mistwell]

Meh. I'd say around 15th level spell.

 

[green slime]

I don't see the problem.

Shape Change was a powerful spell, in 1e. So was timestop, wish, and similar. In 1e, there were no Epic level monsters, to shapechange into. Tarrasque, which appeared in the 1e MMII, was a unique creature.

It fit the bill perfectly at ninth, in that era.

 

[AllisterH]

I don't see the problem.

Shape Change was a powerful spell, in 1e. So was timestop, wish, and similar. In 1e, there were no Epic level monsters, to shapechange into. Tarrasque, which appeared in the 1e MMII, was a unique creature.

It fit the bill perfectly at ninth, in that era.

This was kind of true actually.

I mean, what was the most powerful creature one could shapechange into? Even there, the PCs by the time they hit 17th level could solo any monster or deity in fact so shapechange wasn't that bad.

Now Timestop, there was a killer. I'm sorry but the "spells can affect the target" nature of the spell made it the best damn spell.