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What levels would be PF/3.xe's paragon and epic tiers


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Based on arcane and divine spells/powers I guess.

3.x defined Epic as anything from level 21+. That's the first level when characters can take Epic feats and Epic prestige classes. The ability to cast Epic Spells really changes the game, although DC's will be so high at first that they can only be cast with huge costs or be fairly weak epic spells.

Before that, I'd say the real game changer is at 9th level, when 5th level spells like Teleport and Raise Dead radically increase durability and flexibility of PCs.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
I'd say the following:

1-4: Adventurer
5-10: Hero
11-16: Legendary
17-20: Transcendent
21: Epic

***

5th-6th level are when area damage, flight, and a variety of other game-changers are avaliable magically, and when fighters get multiple attacks.

11th is the next iterative for fighters, and the introduction of such luminaries as Disintegrate and Heal.

Ninth level spells kind of justify their own category.
 

S'mon

Legend
4e Epic is a rather odd mix of 3e "Very High Level" (16-20) and "Epic (21+). If you look at the 3e monsters translated into 4e, some high-teens-CR monsters got turned into High Epic (eg the Balor) where they get to rub ELs with Atropals and other 3e-Epic stuff.

So the answer might be 21+, but it could also be 16+.

I think for Paragon, the answer is fairly clearly that in 3e it starts at the start of 'High' level, ie 11th, same as in 4e. The question is whether it goes to 20th, or only 15th.

And of course spellcaster power escalation in 3e is so rapid, high level 3e spellcasters have far more power than their 4e equivalents of similar level.
 

4e Epic is a rather odd mix of 3e "Very High Level" (16-20) and "Epic (21+). If you look at the 3e monsters translated into 4e, some high-teens-CR monsters got turned into High Epic (eg the Balor) where they get to rub ELs with Atropals and other 3e-Epic stuff.
I figure that's because the Balor is always supposed to be a top-level Demon in any version of D&D, it's level/CR/XP total is arbitrarily set towards the top of the power that PCs are ever expected to get.

In 3.x, Epic levels are not in the Core Rules, the core rules presume a 1st to 20th campaign. Well, in the 3.5 DMG they had some very, very barebones Epic info, but no Epic monsters at all. The Balor was set to it's CR in 3.x intending for it to be something that would be a fair fight for a campaign-ending battle.

Same concept in 4e, they just spread out the 20 levels of an assumed full campaign into 30. It's one reason I don't see 30th level in 4e, 3e and 2e/1e as really representing the same degree of power and progression.
 


jedavis

First Post
I'd put 'em at 1-6, 7-13ish, and low teens+. 4th level spells are kind of a turning point, with things like Scrying and Solid Fog that fighters just can't do anything about (flying foe? arrows. Fireballs? reflex saves and hit points. Solid fog? Screwed.), as well as Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, which puts the nix on lower-level casters. Phantasmal Killer, for all that the double-save is terrible, introduces save-or-die, Enervation introduces negative levels, Dimension Door introduces teleportation, and Stoneskin and Polymorph start making melee arcanists a very real possibility. On the divine side, Reincarnate appears as the first return-from-death ability. 4th-level spells are the heralds of a new tier of caster power.

I would argue that the second shift occurs with 7th-level spells, mainly Limited Wish. That's the second shift for casters, where they go from well-defined spell effects to open-ended ones, and the gates of Crazytown are shattered.
 

S'mon

Legend
I'd put 'em at 1-6, 7-13ish, and low teens+. 4th level spells are kind of a turning point, with things like Scrying and Solid Fog that fighters just can't do anything about (flying foe? arrows. Fireballs? reflex saves and hit points. Solid fog? Screwed.), as well as Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, which puts the nix on lower-level casters. Phantasmal Killer, for all that the double-save is terrible, introduces save-or-die, Enervation introduces negative levels, Dimension Door introduces teleportation, and Stoneskin and Polymorph start making melee arcanists a very real possibility. On the divine side, Reincarnate appears as the first return-from-death ability. 4th-level spells are the heralds of a new tier of caster power.

I would argue that the second shift occurs with 7th-level spells, mainly Limited Wish. That's the second shift for casters, where they go from well-defined spell effects to open-ended ones, and the gates of Crazytown are shattered.

In terms of actual PC resource power, I think that makes sense. 1-6 Heroic, 7-12 Paragon, 13-20 Epic.
 


Dice4Hire

First Post
I would say that Pathfinder paragon levels begin at level 9, as soon as the wizard can cast Teleport.

Epic levels start at level 17.

I would go with this. 5th level is Paragon, and 9th level is Epic. I might go to 8th, but most 8th level spells are weak in 3.5, not sure in Pathfinder, but I imagine so.
 

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