Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
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Pathfinder 1E What levels would you make these spells?
- Thread starter Whizbang Dustyboots
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steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
I would go 2nd for the Glib Response, maybe even 3rd. It seems to me like a combo/alterations to, say, ventriloquism with elements of "forget". It is phantasmal and effecting perception (hearing) and emotion/attitude, believing what it is they are hearing. Yeah, I'd go 2nd minimum, probably 3rd there.
The Leather Coat, I'd do 2nd. Duration is significantly longer. I might agree to level 1 if you were increasing duration to a half hour/level...maybe. But for an hour?! You need to make this 2nd, at least. As you note it is "less flexible", but at the same time it is "more specialized" to a specific use in this particular setting...making it, arguably, "more useful/powerful." So, yeah, I'd say 2nd there as well.
The Leather Coat, I'd do 2nd. Duration is significantly longer. I might agree to level 1 if you were increasing duration to a half hour/level...maybe. But for an hour?! You need to make this 2nd, at least. As you note it is "less flexible", but at the same time it is "more specialized" to a specific use in this particular setting...making it, arguably, "more useful/powerful." So, yeah, I'd say 2nd there as well.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Is Glib Response really more powerful than Detect Thoughts, which a wizard could use to just get the information needed to bypass the problems Glib Response can (sort of) bypass? Remember that the information from Detect Thoughts is retained by the caster, whereas the caster for Glib Response has no idea what the answer was, and can't repeat it to the next guard, tell it to a friend, etc., since he never knew it to begin with.
And if you made it third level, Glib Response would have to be better than Suggestion, which is a much more flexible spell that can be used in many more ways.
And if you made it third level, Glib Response would have to be better than Suggestion, which is a much more flexible spell that can be used in many more ways.
steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
True. It definitely has elements of Detect Thoughts...influencing them instead.Even though the caster is not getting the information, the "magic" of the spell is producing it in the targets mind.
It would not "have to be better than Suggestion"...it would have to be en par with...as they would both be 3rd level spells. You seem to be using "flexibility" as the metric by which spell levels are determined...and while I will grant it can certainly be one element, it is not the only nor even primary one. Things like duration, amount of damage, range and area of effect, the fact that a spell may be a more powerful, or more specific -and thus more powerful- version of a lower level spell can all contribute to what "tier" of magic a spell falls in line with.
This spell, Glib Response, gives you very specific, exactly correct, information...and the target hears it and believes you said it. That is not en par with Audible...oh what was it in 3e?...Ghost Sound! An audial illusion cantrip where it is something inexact, no specific words, unable to determine any more than general direction of where it's coming from. Nor is it 1e's Audible Glamour, a 1st level. Nor 1-3e's Ventriloquism.
The parallel to Detect Thoughts seems a good one to me. The audio component/exact speech of the illusion easily within the power of a 2nd level spell (Magic Mouth anyone?).
I will stick to my assertion it should be 2nd. 3rd is a bit much. You are, of course, free to do what you like. But then, you asked.
It would not "have to be better than Suggestion"...it would have to be en par with...as they would both be 3rd level spells. You seem to be using "flexibility" as the metric by which spell levels are determined...and while I will grant it can certainly be one element, it is not the only nor even primary one. Things like duration, amount of damage, range and area of effect, the fact that a spell may be a more powerful, or more specific -and thus more powerful- version of a lower level spell can all contribute to what "tier" of magic a spell falls in line with.
This spell, Glib Response, gives you very specific, exactly correct, information...and the target hears it and believes you said it. That is not en par with Audible...oh what was it in 3e?...Ghost Sound! An audial illusion cantrip where it is something inexact, no specific words, unable to determine any more than general direction of where it's coming from. Nor is it 1e's Audible Glamour, a 1st level. Nor 1-3e's Ventriloquism.
The parallel to Detect Thoughts seems a good one to me. The audio component/exact speech of the illusion easily within the power of a 2nd level spell (Magic Mouth anyone?).
I will stick to my assertion it should be 2nd. 3rd is a bit much. You are, of course, free to do what you like. But then, you asked.
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steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
You could, potentially, look at/imagine would have gone into the making of the spells? What did the wizard who created these spells work with?
From where I'm looking, at minimum, you need the equivalent of Message cantrip (to relay the audio message), Audible Glamour, so it can be heard by more than one target; Detect Thoughts, to draw the pertinent information out of the target; and a mild Suggestion to make them believe that you said what you should have...
Taking a rough average of those, I get a 2nd level spell.
From where I'm looking, at minimum, you need the equivalent of Message cantrip (to relay the audio message), Audible Glamour, so it can be heard by more than one target; Detect Thoughts, to draw the pertinent information out of the target; and a mild Suggestion to make them believe that you said what you should have...
Taking a rough average of those, I get a 2nd level spell.
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