What Makes a Hero?
- Thread starter Death_Jester
- Start date
DragonLancer
Hero
Some months agao I saw a documentary about this chap, and his braver y during the 2nd world war. This web page doesn't do him justice, but you get the idea of what a hero is.
http://www.arnhemarchive.org/robert_cain.htm
But with regards to D&D, its very difficult to say what a hero is. For me the game is about heroics and epicness, which is why I get quite put out when players keep playing CN so they don't have to care, or expressing an interest in playing evil characters.
Heroes in the worlds of D&D should be there for reasons other than gold, fame and whatnot. Thats fine at the 1st level, but as the game goes along, they should be saving innocents, defeating evil, performing brave and potentially life-threatening deeds in order to save others.
I also remember an episode of the more recent Twilight Zone series starring Michal Dorn (Worf from Star Trek), and the last thing the narrator said was something like "A hero is a person, who saves the lives of countless others, but his actions go unseen and unheard of by those they save."
Thats a measure of a hero as well. They don't do it for money, nor admiration, they do it because its the right thing to do.
http://www.arnhemarchive.org/robert_cain.htm
But with regards to D&D, its very difficult to say what a hero is. For me the game is about heroics and epicness, which is why I get quite put out when players keep playing CN so they don't have to care, or expressing an interest in playing evil characters.
Heroes in the worlds of D&D should be there for reasons other than gold, fame and whatnot. Thats fine at the 1st level, but as the game goes along, they should be saving innocents, defeating evil, performing brave and potentially life-threatening deeds in order to save others.
I also remember an episode of the more recent Twilight Zone series starring Michal Dorn (Worf from Star Trek), and the last thing the narrator said was something like "A hero is a person, who saves the lives of countless others, but his actions go unseen and unheard of by those they save."
Thats a measure of a hero as well. They don't do it for money, nor admiration, they do it because its the right thing to do.
Death_Jester
Explorer
Greetings Everyone,
First let me say, Alignments are a big pain in the butt. They have been for a long time but since they are part of the game and as Monte Cooke said it would be near impossible to remove them. In Dungeons and Dragons so many things revolve around your Alignment that taking them out would create a vacuum and require a whole new system to replace them. I don’t have that kind of time or energy anymore. I just want to game and tell stories now, not try to fix the rules. So instead of scrapping them I have decided to embrace them and try to find a better way to adjudicate their use. I am trying to avoid the "straight jacket" pattern because I have been in that situation where the GM says “you are (fill in the blank alignment) and you wouldn’t do that.” At the time the GM was right. Now, I don’t think a standard player’s handbook paladin would whack an old lady, who just happens to be walking down a road doing nothing, just because she detects as evil. However there always exception to the rule
.
My real hope for this discussion is to find what it means to be a hero or to act in a heroic manner. I have played many fallen heroes and villainous type characters but have yet, at least in my own mind, to play a truly heroic character. It is with the understanding that I have no clue what a hero is like or what even makes a good hero that I have come here looking for advice from those that share my particular interest in this kind of subject.
My problem is that I’m much to practical and pragmatic, meaning that for me very often the “ends justify the means” in many cases. I see things on the same gray scale that many others on this thread have posted. While this works for me in the real world it does not help me with the understanding of the “true” hero. When I use the word hero here it is in reference to the mythological hero archetype the one from definitions 1 b-d. While the definitions serve as a guidepost it still does not give me a clear picture of what that person is or how he/she thinks, acts or why they do what they do. The posts here have all been very informative about these last parts though and from them I am beginning to see the bigger picture, so thank you again for your time and effort.
I know that it is hard to put words to describing the classic “Knight in White Armor” kind of archetypical hero other then to give comparisons to literary characters. That is why I asked for help from those that might be more articulate or well written/read then myself to get a better grip on what it means. I know the classic characters were flawed in many ways but it is perhaps these flaws that help us relate to them a little better in the sense of having something that they had overcome and were able to rise above whatever limited them. From that weakness came some kind of moral push to be more upright and or to try harder to overcome that weakness.
Hypothetical Second Person: So basically they were people that overcompensated for some perceived weakness?
Me: I hope there is more to it then that.
As for the moral argument I think the hero’s authority and position must come from a position of moral strength. No one wants to follow someone perceived as being corrupt or compromised in some way. Morality must play some part in the hero’s existence if nothing else then to allow him/her the chance to gain the trust of others that would follow them. When I use the term morality here it is not from just the Judo-Christian point of view but from some basic and universal thoughts on integrity and being worthy of trust. I for one would not follow someone into battle that I thought was only out for what they could get out of the situation. The pure Knight fights off the hoard of monsters for no other reason then to save people. It was the right thing to do would be their response to the question, “why”. Others might ask what is in it for me or how much are the monsters willing to pay to prevent me from interfering?
This is something that is going to take me a long time to work out I am sure but this has been helping quite a bit with bringing up thoughts and points of discussion. I would ask that if my replies seem a little short please understand that most of the time I am at work and don’t really have a lot of time to write anymore. So I’m not trying to be terse with anyone it is just that I don’t have time. Otherwise I would be going on like this all the time.
Thanks for your time.
First let me say, Alignments are a big pain in the butt. They have been for a long time but since they are part of the game and as Monte Cooke said it would be near impossible to remove them. In Dungeons and Dragons so many things revolve around your Alignment that taking them out would create a vacuum and require a whole new system to replace them. I don’t have that kind of time or energy anymore. I just want to game and tell stories now, not try to fix the rules. So instead of scrapping them I have decided to embrace them and try to find a better way to adjudicate their use. I am trying to avoid the "straight jacket" pattern because I have been in that situation where the GM says “you are (fill in the blank alignment) and you wouldn’t do that.” At the time the GM was right. Now, I don’t think a standard player’s handbook paladin would whack an old lady, who just happens to be walking down a road doing nothing, just because she detects as evil. However there always exception to the rule
. My real hope for this discussion is to find what it means to be a hero or to act in a heroic manner. I have played many fallen heroes and villainous type characters but have yet, at least in my own mind, to play a truly heroic character. It is with the understanding that I have no clue what a hero is like or what even makes a good hero that I have come here looking for advice from those that share my particular interest in this kind of subject.
My problem is that I’m much to practical and pragmatic, meaning that for me very often the “ends justify the means” in many cases. I see things on the same gray scale that many others on this thread have posted. While this works for me in the real world it does not help me with the understanding of the “true” hero. When I use the word hero here it is in reference to the mythological hero archetype the one from definitions 1 b-d. While the definitions serve as a guidepost it still does not give me a clear picture of what that person is or how he/she thinks, acts or why they do what they do. The posts here have all been very informative about these last parts though and from them I am beginning to see the bigger picture, so thank you again for your time and effort.
I know that it is hard to put words to describing the classic “Knight in White Armor” kind of archetypical hero other then to give comparisons to literary characters. That is why I asked for help from those that might be more articulate or well written/read then myself to get a better grip on what it means. I know the classic characters were flawed in many ways but it is perhaps these flaws that help us relate to them a little better in the sense of having something that they had overcome and were able to rise above whatever limited them. From that weakness came some kind of moral push to be more upright and or to try harder to overcome that weakness.
Hypothetical Second Person: So basically they were people that overcompensated for some perceived weakness?
Me: I hope there is more to it then that.
As for the moral argument I think the hero’s authority and position must come from a position of moral strength. No one wants to follow someone perceived as being corrupt or compromised in some way. Morality must play some part in the hero’s existence if nothing else then to allow him/her the chance to gain the trust of others that would follow them. When I use the term morality here it is not from just the Judo-Christian point of view but from some basic and universal thoughts on integrity and being worthy of trust. I for one would not follow someone into battle that I thought was only out for what they could get out of the situation. The pure Knight fights off the hoard of monsters for no other reason then to save people. It was the right thing to do would be their response to the question, “why”. Others might ask what is in it for me or how much are the monsters willing to pay to prevent me from interfering?
This is something that is going to take me a long time to work out I am sure but this has been helping quite a bit with bringing up thoughts and points of discussion. I would ask that if my replies seem a little short please understand that most of the time I am at work and don’t really have a lot of time to write anymore. So I’m not trying to be terse with anyone it is just that I don’t have time. Otherwise I would be going on like this all the time.
Thanks for your time.
Last edited:
silentspace
First Post
Listen to Dogbrain! Dogbrain is wise! 
You could go with the mythic/Campbellian hero theme, but in your typical game this requires a great deal of DM fiat, and your entire gaming group needs to be on the same page. If your group has a King Arthur in it, more power to you. But I think most groups don't.
You could go with the alignment-based moral thought route, but then if you do that, every lawful good character is a hero, regardless of what type of character they play. A 20th level paladin smiting a kobold murderer/rapist? In the standard game cosmology, definitely a good, ethically correct, morally upstanding act. But does that make him a hero?
In the end I don't think there are/can be heroes in the game. But there can be heroic actions. I would define a heroic action as an action where you put yourself (your PC) personally at great risk to help good creatures. Thus, a fighter facing a horde of charging orcs to give the villagers a chance to escape is a hero. A fighter facing a horde of charging orcs to protect his evil necromancer leader, out of fear of what his boss will do if he doesn't, is not a hero.
You could go with the mythic/Campbellian hero theme, but in your typical game this requires a great deal of DM fiat, and your entire gaming group needs to be on the same page. If your group has a King Arthur in it, more power to you. But I think most groups don't.
You could go with the alignment-based moral thought route, but then if you do that, every lawful good character is a hero, regardless of what type of character they play. A 20th level paladin smiting a kobold murderer/rapist? In the standard game cosmology, definitely a good, ethically correct, morally upstanding act. But does that make him a hero?
In the end I don't think there are/can be heroes in the game. But there can be heroic actions. I would define a heroic action as an action where you put yourself (your PC) personally at great risk to help good creatures. Thus, a fighter facing a horde of charging orcs to give the villagers a chance to escape is a hero. A fighter facing a horde of charging orcs to protect his evil necromancer leader, out of fear of what his boss will do if he doesn't, is not a hero.
Snoweel
First Post
When I think of a hero, I'm always reminded of that NFL player who died trying to save some drowning kids back in the early 80s.
The guy had everything to live for, yet jumped into a raging river to rescue a couple of kids he didn't know even though he couldn't swim!!!!!
Sadly he and the kids all died, and the world was a lesser place for it.
The guy had everything to live for, yet jumped into a raging river to rescue a couple of kids he didn't know even though he couldn't swim!!!!!
Sadly he and the kids all died, and the world was a lesser place for it.
Snoweel said:
Hmm. If he could swim, if he had even a small-but-realistic chance of success, I'd agree he was a hero.
"Doing the right thing" can be taken too far, though. How many other people (friends, relatives, spouse/girlfriend etc) suffered because of his death? Because he effectively threw his life away on a doomed venture?
Sometimes the hardest thing is staying alive.
Snoweel
First Post
S'mon said:
Put it this way - the guy's an elite athlete. Do you have any idea how much self-belief these people have?
Not only that, he may have been able to dog-paddle or whatever. Certainly enough that he didn't know it was a doomed venture. He might have thought he had a chance. He might have thought the adrenaline would give him that extra bit of WOOF.
I'd say he didn't know how much chance he had of success but I'm positive he felt it was greater than zero.
Do you really think he would have dived into the river if he knew he was "doomed"?
As for how many people suffered from his death - people die every day. If my own death only inspires one person in the way that this guy's death has inspired me, it will have all been worth it.
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