What makes a setting dull?

[InVinoVeritas]

There are no dull settings, only dull DMs and players.

The game is what we make of it and a little creative doctoring when the situation calls for it goes a long way.

Although I agree with the sentiment, it does lead to the conclusion that published settings are superfluous, since they will not drive engagement and fun. In short, all published settings are equally gripping, and thus there is no need of any of them.

That can't be quite right, because I would have never thought of, say, Dark Sun or the particulars of Ravenloft on my own. Thus, there must be some difference between setting that make some more interesting than others, and by extension, some more dull than others.

So, given a DM and players that are capable of creating a good atmosphere, equally capable in any setting, what recommends one setting over another?

For me, an interesting setting has plot hooks that make me want to try them out. Usually, this involves some aspect of the game presented in a novel fashion: atmosphere in Dark Sun or Ravenloft, cultures in Eberron, engaging races or classes or fighting styles or what have you. A dull setting does not bother with this.

 

[doctorhook]

In any case, I disagree that Eberron runs through the D&D rulebooks with a checklist. In fact, I think to suggest such a thing is fairly absurd. What Eberron did, that no other setting did before, was attempt to make a rational world based on the tropes and rules of the game, extrapolating what a world with that metaphysical reality might actually turn out as, rather than applying the rules (poorly) to the setting after the fact and having a cognitive mismatch between rules and setting.

You're absolutely right, of course, in saying that no other iconic, historical D&D setting has done that before. In fact, that's what I've said too. But the fact that it's done so makes it quintessentially D&D in a way that no other setting ever has been.

This.

Some people seem to get hung up on the advice that "anything in D&D has a place in Eberron", which isn't the same as saying that "everything in D&D is in Eberron". Everything in D&D can have a place in Eberron, and the setting still works; in contrast, FR (for example) always looked a lot more homebrew when you consider that the map was basically drawn around disparate tropes strewn across paper. ("This is the Egyptian place, this is the evil wizard country, this is the Arabian country, this is the Aztec country, here's Asia, oh, except they're all fantasistical.") Eberron triple-underscores the fact that its world is filled with exceptions to every trope, where other settings tend to play to the trope itself.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Hobo: I agree entirely on the high level 3.X being more pain than pleasure. And avoiding it sounds good to me too.

I guess the problem I'd have here would be the purely practical one of explaining to my players why they're getting contacts and favours from NPCs instead of Levels. The whinging would drive me nuts!

heh heh heh.

 

[rounser]

What Eberron did, that no other setting did before, was attempt to make a rational world based on the tropes and rules of the game, extrapolating what a world with that metaphysical reality might actually turn out as, rather than applying the rules (poorly) to the setting after the fact and having a cognitive mismatch between rules and setting.

Which is completely bass-ackward. The simulation defining what is simulated. Thank you for making my case for me, because IMO this design goal is an exhibit A in not understanding D&D or what makes it's fantastic side tick. It's how to make magic unmagical, and speaks volumes of just who's in charge of the game now and how they think. This goal, far from being quintessential to D&D, is anathema to it (except perhaps 4E, which is based on similar ideologies).

 

[GSHamster]

I think the absence of polarizing elements goes a long way to making a setting dull. The best settings tend to have people who love them intensely and people who hate them intensely.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I apologize for ruining everything Rounser just said, but as someone who likes "simulationism," dislike 4e, loves old school D&D...I love Eberron ;p

"Old" doesn't mean "good" unless you're eating cheese or drinking. Eberron is damn mysterious and keeps the magic as magical - more so, I'll state, then any other setting. Why? Because powerful magic is 1) rare as hell, 2) powerful as hell, and 3) unheard of as hell. You're letting your nostalgia goggles hide the good stuff, man!

Look, is Eberron magitec? Yes. But that's because of the influx of low level magic. Unlike, uh, every other setting in existance, there's close to zero high level NPCs. Hell, there's close to zero mid level NPCs. Once you get past the level 1 stuff, the vast majority of the world has never seen it before.

Besides, if going into the cursed and chaotically-twisted realms of the ancient giant warlocks and sorcerers to reclaim artifacts that nobody has even heard of for millenium is unmagical, then what DOES constitute as magic? What's more mysterious then having dragons who follow a prophecy that's incomprehensible to the mortal mind?

 

[rounser]

? Because powerful magic is 1) rare as hell, 2) powerful as hell, and 3) unheard of as hell. You're letting your nostalgia goggles hide the good stuff, man!

Not impressed. Nothing interesting here yet. And nostalgia aside, Eberron is aesthetically unappealing to me, from the art direction to the anachronisms to the "attitude" to the wannabe-another-genreisms to the kitchen sinking to the wahoo PC races to the dragon-everything to the thematic incoherence.

But that's because of the influx of low level magic.

Doesn't matter how powerful or not. Magic shouldn't be an everyday thing, integrated into society, if you want it to stay magical. It's completely missing the point, unless you want some weird flying carpet postal service setting.

(Maybe another reason I find eberron deeply uninteresting is that some of it reminds me of a homebrew I did i high school, complete with "scourgelands" [sort of nuclear fallout-esque dark magic regions that are the aftermath of a war, can't sustain life, and keep growing] and even warforged analogs, although mine were magically genetically engineered mongol clones originally used as an army, but since "programmed" by their culture and tradition to hide and protect the fell artifacts that were used to create the scourgelands. Nothing new under the sun.)

 

[TheNovaLord]

Well, I have to admit a personal bias... I never thought D&D did high level very well, so I only occasionally played it (and universally found the experience more frustrating rather than fun.) This was especially true of 3.5, and Eberron was designed around 3.5. So, to me at least, the idea that it avoided the higher levels only made perfect sense. I was already doing that too.

Agree, after about 9th D&D in all its incarnations started to loose appeal.

Eberron was supposed to be lower level, but with some much big stuff going on, it never felt it.

only vaguley dipped into FR, via Living 4th ed, and it didnt grab me at all.

DL/ME are intersting reads, but yeah, thers not a lot for a PC to do in the 'familiar' areas.

What makes other settings dull:
If within a few minutes of reading if i wanna GM, or a few sessions of playing, i 'dont get it', cos its to wierd, too alien or silly....whfrp world for example, i dont find grim or gritty, just silly and dull.

TBH i dunno if dull is the right word to be using. A setting may not be 'dull', DL for example, but you might not be the least bit interested to game there.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Not impressed. Nothing interesting here yet. And nostalgia aside, Eberron is aesthetically unappealing to me, from the art direction to the anachronisms to the "attitude" to the wannabe-another-genreisms to the kitchen sinking to the wahoo PC races to the dragon-everything to the thematic incoherence.

Ah, you're in the camp of "Anything that isn't man-elf-dwarf-halfling is TOO WAHOO." Nevermind then. There will simply be no compromise that can be made here.

Doesn't matter how powerful or not. Magic shouldn't be an everyday thing, integrated into society, if you want it to stay magical. It's completely missing the point, unless you want some weird flying carpet postal service setting.

That's funny. I have a microwave, a stove, an oven, a toaster, and a refridgerator all in my kitchen. And yet I'm still amazed and impressed when I look at new or different types of technology. I'm not quite sure why magic isn't allowed to be used at all for it to be considered "magical."

Also, you've completely missed my point. Eberron has a flux of low level magic. Every other setting has a huge glut of all levels of magic. In FR you can't walk five feet without tripping over ancient elven artifacts and a level 20 wizard wielding it. Greyhawk, quite frankly, isn't better at all.

I find it inane that you claim there's too much magic in Eberron while almost all the magic spells in all of D&D were named from the thousands of high level spellcasters in others. These are the same settings in which all the gods are personal buddies of the clerics, every iota of history is well known and circulated amongst the masses, dragons are color coded for your convinience, and it's standard for every town to have a high level cleric and wizard. And yet Eberron makes magic unmagical simply by pointing out how retarded all of that is?

Methinks you're not looking at this rationally.

 

[rounser]

Ah, you're in the camp of "Anything that isn't man-elf-dwarf-halfling is TOO WAHOO." Nevermind then. There will simply be no compromise that can be made here.

No, I'll accept a novel menagerie when there's a strong theme to the setting so that the selection of PC races doesn't come across as an incoherent mess. e.g. Dark Sun (menagerie) and Al Qadim (humanocentric) have strong themes, whereas Eberron and 4E strike me as incoherent messes with races there just for gimmicky "hey ho what the hell I like dragons and robots doesn't everyone lets have them 24/7" reasons.

And yet Eberron makes magic unmagical simply by pointing out how retarded all of that is?

No, thats just kneejerk ideology based on "the PCs should be the heroes" that you're confusing with actual innovation. And Eberron is retarded because it has magical mundanities which, by making magic mundane part of everyday life, trivialise it. You can't rag on FR about this beyond far off fairytale realms like Halruua and Nimbral, because apart from magical street lamps in some towns and the odd weird inn FR keeps it's magic generally where it should be - somewhere eldritch or arcane. Wizard per square metre head count is irrelevant.

Methinks you're not looking at this rationally.

Methinks I just think your reasoning is wrong. It could also be called "having a different opinion". You're no arbiter of rationality, and nor am I, and it's arrogant and naive to assume that your stance is such.