• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

What makes an Old School Renaissance FEEL like an OSR game?

jacksonmalloy

First Post
First, some context:
I got into a discussion with a buddy of mine over a couple of beers, and we got to reminiscing about our early D&D experiences, back when TSR was still a company.


Neither of us played 3.x edition until just before 4e came out and we both found it... Well. Not what we were expecting from D&D.


So we were reminiscing and I got the urge to play old school d&d. The only rub being that my current group has never played 2e, and having gone back and looked through it myself for the first time in nearly 15 years, I find the prospect of relearning and reteaching it to be daunting.


So now I'm debating if I wouldn't be better off either home brewing or hacking some other game to get the same effect.


So this is a question to fans of OSR games:


What makes an OSR game feel like an OSR game? Certainly many are outright clones or slight improvements on an existing system, but is there more to it than that? Could someone capture the feel of that kind of game without necessarily running a white box or AD&D mash up?


If we assume yes, what defines that experience for you? What properties does an old school game have? What things do they specifically avoid?


If we assume I'm a competent enough game designer that I could pull such a thing off, what would you want to see from a purpose-built old school emulation game?


I'm basically looking for a sounding board to compare my own experiences to. If the discussion here goes anywhere, ill be sure to share the results when the document is produced
 

log in or register to remove this ad

For me, the main thing for the feel is that the game doesn't leave a circuit of description.

The GM describes something
One or more players describe what they do in response
The GM consults the system as needed to determine the results
The GM describes the new something that results
The circuit continues

As soon as the working of the system is on the table and not behind the screen and people are making decisions based on system elements rather than description elements, then they'll have left the most defining characteristics of the oldest forms of D&D (or other late 70s and early 80s RPGs).

This comes from a tradition of wargaming where the referee has all the rules and runs the games for the guests. They decide how to arrange their forces and react to reports of enemy movements as the referee communicates them to various sides. Some gamers even had duplicate terrain tables in different rooms where forces would only get placed on tables as they were detected.

Basically the game should always be referring back to the fictional content and should avoid system-to-system-to-system resolution chains which don't feed back a result into the fictional content which then is changed by that result.

So yeah, it's totally possible to run a lot of games like an OSR game.
 
Last edited:

While some people say there is no single definition of OSR, I think this one puts it perfectly: "Everything based on TSR D&D-editions."

The other thing is how you approach running it, which someone has summarized very well in the Quick Primer for Old School Gaming. However, I think that while the things said there are certainly true, they are not actually unique to OSR games. I think those things should be applied to running any roleplaying game.
 

It's best to be wary of the primer. It represents one approach to one game and then presents it as representative of some sort of universal "old style." The truth of the matter is that early gaming is marked by heterodoxy, not by orthodoxy. There was no uniform approach and the "zen moments" in the primer really distort things. There are games published in the 70s that wouldn't qualify as "old style" according to the primer.

This thread is about feel, so there may be useful hints in the primer about that, but make sure you don't get hoodwinked by the caricature of "new style" and the presentation of one approach as some sort of definitive way of playing.
 
Last edited:

In my book, the most striking difference between D&D 3+ and OSR games is that in OSR the player decides based on the character concept, while in 3+ decision is based on the characfter sheet.

All the detail provided by the rules in 3+ is replaced by description and interpretation. To take this even further, you can implement the "description trumps die" rule: no need for even a stat roll if the player's description convinces the GM that the action will go as planned.

Oh, and welcome as an active member on the boards!
 

Oh, and welcome as an active member on the boards!

Thanks for the welcome!

I read through the Primer, and I can at least agree that it does capture a lot of what I remember playing back in the day. The weird paradox is that I remember D&D as being simple and rules light, even though there are literally dozens of books of rules and tables and things. In hindsight, this was because I never met anyone back then who actually used any of the rules except for combat and advancement. I'm not sure if that's great, or something that indicates poor design.

But the primers definitions do paint me into a very specific corner, and its one that I'm not necessarily wanting to sit in.

I rather liked the idea of player skill vs character sheets, but one of the nicer trends in the last decade of RPG development is the idea that characters can excel in other areas than combat. Social skills are a good example of this. In d&d, at least, this was basically handled by pure role play, which is great (but also why Charisma has long been a dump stat). Or at least it's great until you have someone who wants to be something they aren't in real life. It's easy for the most charming and charismatic person in real life to play down to a gruff and off putting 8cha. Likewise, its easy to play down to the 'dumb barbarian' but there isn't a person alive who can convincingly role play a character who is ultimately, demonstrably smarter or more charismatic than they are. This is where having the sheet/stats matter in 'modern' games. It gives me the freedom to play a character who doesn't follow my own natural strengths and weaknesses and not be hamstrung.

Is there a balance here that can be struck between 'relying on the sheet' and being able to emulate abilities that the players themselves do not have?

Another impression that I seem to recall is that early D&D seemed to make the characters.. special? By being a first level fighter, you weren't impressive by gamer standards, but you were already a cut above the world at large. The rest of the world was effectively level 0. I remember my.. horror.. realizing that in 3.x you had to sit down and work out things like 5th level merchants and a 7th level 'specialist', etc etc. I distinctly remember seeing some NPC in an adventure book that was a multi-classed something or other along the lines of 3 levels of specialist, 4 levels of fighter, and 1 level of rogue. I could read no further. This lead to a running gag wherein we would, in casual conversation, proclaim what levels we took in what by way of explanation (at one point, an exceptionally good waitress was decided to have been at least a 10th level waitress, and that was before the discussion on her charisma stat).

The other thing that stands out to me is that the players didn't actually have to know how to play the game when they started. The game was simple enough and narrative enough that as long as the DM understood the rules, the players just described what they wanted to do, and the DM could call for a roll as appropriate. This is a stark contrast to games where the players need to know and understand all of the options and special abilities before they can meaningfully interact with the system.

I can't comment on early runequest. The only version I've read is 6th, and I haven't actually played it. Though, now I kind of want to find a 1e version. Any ideas where to find it?

Do my observations thus far stack up with your own? How do they differ?
 


It's easy for the most charming and charismatic person in real life to play down to a gruff and off putting 8cha. Likewise, its easy to play down to the 'dumb barbarian' but there isn't a person alive who can convincingly role play a character who is ultimately, demonstrably smarter or more charismatic than they are. This is where having the sheet/stats matter in 'modern' games. It gives me the freedom to play a character who doesn't follow my own natural strengths and weaknesses and not be hamstrung.

I remember seeing a signature in someone's post on Dragonsfoot that went something like "We don't explore characters, we explore dungeons."

In the narrow subset of early gaming that has come to dominate the definition of old school, characters are often seen as pawns or avatars rather than as roles an actor is playing. This of course, runs contrary to the heavy character identification in games like Wesley's Braunstein, which was heavily about play acting and closer to a modern LARP than anything like D&D.

Is there a balance here that can be struck between 'relying on the sheet' and being able to emulate abilities that the players themselves do not have?

It's important to remember that the whole OSR thing was essentially a reaction to the popularity of D&D 3rd edition and the proliferation of d20/OGL gaming. As well as the ways that game completely abandoned the things people liked about the way they played D&D. With the internet finally maturing, people who enjoyed the older games started promoting them and doing great work in taking the OGL and reverse engineering retro-clones so the older versions of the games could once again become widely available.

So basically no, the well has been poisoned. False dichotomies have been forged and now, for many, any talk of resolving social situations by dice or rolling for bargaining is derided as "new style" or "not old school." Despite the fact that such mechanics exist in games from the 70s. Heck, even D&D has a mechanic for encounter reaction where the monsters might be friendly or something. Not sure where the earliest version of D&D's mechanics for social reactions were first published, but it's definitely in AD&D1E.

The other thing that stands out to me is that the players didn't actually have to know how to play the game when they started. The game was simple enough and narrative enough that as long as the DM understood the rules, the players just described what they wanted to do, and the DM could call for a roll as appropriate. This is a stark contrast to games where the players need to know and understand all of the options and special abilities before they can meaningfully interact with the system.

This is something the older games largely did have in common. It's from the wargaming tradition of a referee running a miniature wargame and the players showing up as guests and giving the game a go. Also, if you think about it, a new hobby being developed needs to have rules that are easy enough to play so that they don't act as a barrier to entry for new people. Given that the referee is the one who likely owns the rules and then is inviting people to try out this new hobby, it makes sense that the games would be simple enough that the referee can handle all the rules interactions for the whole table without too much difficulty.

Later, it was realized that players actually are interested in system elements and exploring the game system itself. Some even did this quite early. Like pouring over the spell list and imagining what magic your cleric might cast later in his adventuring career. By the mid 80s the system-ignorant player became less and less of a concern as D&D had become a full on eighties fad.

I can't comment on early runequest. The only version I've read is 6th, and I haven't actually played it. Though, now I kind of want to find a 1e version. Any ideas where to find it?

RQ1 & 2 are functionally identical, with very minor changes between the two. There's an SRD for RQ2 here:
http://basicroleplaying.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=433

It's a reference document and doesn't explain things very well, but it's all there. The other thing I'd recommend checking out is the free version of Chaosium's Basic RolePlaying quick start rules.
http://www.basicrps.com/core/BRP_quick_start.pdf

There's been surprisingly little change in the core system since RQ1 was first published in 1978. The skill system is expanded in the BRP quick start to include settings other than fantasy and the combat system is slightly different, but largely it's the same system. Oh, an hit locations are removed so combat is way more survivable while still being deadly. RQ6 bolts on some subsystems like fate points and fatigue and other neat little semi-optional systems that make it play a bit differently, but it's still a great game.

Runequest is very traditional in a post-1974 D&D sort of way. Lots of people ran D&D the way Runequest runs, but it's definitely different than how those in the American Midwest ran their games in the 1970s (same goes for Tunnels & Trolls). So RQ doesn't exactly provide a great comparative contrast with more recently published games. It has a skill system, it allows for character skill to be used to overcome challenges, it emphasizes character role acting more than 1974 D&D and while it does emphasize that the rules can be used, modified and set aside as needed, it doesn't come across as expecting the referee to do that regularly.

In terms of "heroes, not superheroic" RQ outdoes D&D by quite a large margin as the hit location system combined with the critical hits and impaling rule means that there's never really anyone who's truly safe from taking a crossbow bolt to the eye and dying in one hit. In D&D you can see that you have 7 hit points and the most a crossbow is going to do is 6 and "take the shot" and charge across the room. In RQ2, that would be a very, very bad idea.

When Gygax published AD&D1E he wrote that the heterodoxy of original D&D play meant that people were no longer playing the same game. They'd house ruled and applied rulings to the point where one given group would be doing things so differently than another than they were essentially not playing the same game. So AD&D1E was his attempt at both standardizing things and creating a new product line where a portion of the sales revenue would not have to go to Dave Areneson as royalties (in the end, that legal battle didn't go Gygax's way).

I think Gygax was both correct and self interested in what he wrote about the state of affairs moving into the time of AD&D. People really did play the game differently in different places, often to the point that two different groups, each with a 1974 version of D&D, would essentially be playing two different games.

That's why I think it's best to concentrate on what they all had in common rather than make some sort of broken new-style vs old-style comparison that ends up excluding games published in the 70s.

It was also smart to concentrate on feel. If something has the right feel than people will be far more willing to overlook the presence of something they don't consider their "one true way" of old school.
 
Last edited:

It was also smart to concentrate on feel. If something has the right feel than people will be far more willing to overlook the presence of something they don't consider their "one true way" of old school.
So lets concentrate on 'feel' and commonality.


So far we've established:
* Game narration doesn't leave the circuit of description. Like in Apocalypse World style gaming, the entire game should be a conversation.


And then on the table for discussion
* Game should be approachable enough that you can theoretically begin playing it without reading anything further than an introduction and character creation
* Game has the expectation that the rules do not (and are not trying) to cover all available actions/possibilities, and that player innovation and GM arbitration are not only inevitable, but presumed.


I'm also very much on-board for "Heroic, not super heroic."
 

In my book, the most striking difference between D&D 3+ and OSR games is that in OSR the player decides based on the character concept, while in 3+ decision is based on the characfter sheet.


All the detail provided by the rules in 3+ is replaced by description and interpretation. To take this even further, you can implement the "description trumps die" rule: no need for even a stat roll if the player's description convinces the GM that the action will go as planned.


In my opinion: the expectation that the rules do not (and are not trying) to cover all available actions/possibilities, and that player innovation and GM arbitration are not only inevitable, but presumed.


These quotes make me really appreciate the groups I've played with over the years. I don't think our style really changed that much between 1e, 2e, and 3.5. We played a 1e game last year that was great, but I don't think it really felt that different once we got going. It did let me really appreciate the flexibility in the later editions to make the character on paper match with the concept (it also reminded me how bad 1e thieves are at everything at low levels).
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top