D&D (2024) What new jargon do you want to replace "Race"?

[Yaarel]

The planetouched. They were just born on the wrong plane. It has tainted them in some weird magical way. Not the entire species, but those that grew up on that plane. But, if even that is too racist for you, then I respect your opinion.

If the plane touching grants features that reallife Humans lack, there is no reallife racism.

Flying, aura of fire, waterbreathing, etcetera. No problem.

If the plane touching causes something that looks like a reallife racist stereotype, then problem.

 

[Clint_L]

I have a general question for everyone here: Video games still use these tropes all the time. Any thoughts on them being held to a D&D standard, since, in effect, they are trying to simulate D&D by letting you create a character and participate in a choice-based adventure?

Actually, video games have been working very hard to address these same issues.

This thread is astonishing to me. Almost 40 pages and why? The original term makes some folks uncomfortable, they've explained why, and fair enough. Like, you don't even have to agree with their reasons to just go, "You know what, if it makes you uncomfortable, then let's just change it." What are folks actually being asked to give up? Replacing one word in game with another word without the baggage is not a sacrifice. It is literally the least we can do.

And as long as the replacement word lacks the baggage, then it's fine. No one will care. Species is fine. It doesn't matter. Not one bit of gameplay changes. Why keep going on, and on, and on, and on (almost 40 pages now!) about something so unbelievably trivial.

It's embarrassing.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean yeah, that would be is that's what were actually being said.

Most people like things that are in some way problematic. It's just how we've grown up and how popular culture works.

The important thing si for us to realize that we are not our hobbies. Something you like can be racist without you being racist as long as the racist part isn't what you like about it. Look at the works of Lovecraft: it's just plain built on racism and classism, but people like the nihilism and spooky deep sea imagery and they're not racist for that. Or Mickey Mouse, born in the mage of the Minstrel Show.

Where problems happen is when people can't just listen to criticism of a thing the like without taking it as a personal attack and coming out with HOW DARE YOU CALL ME RACIST.

But not everyone has to agree with your critique of something is the point. There can be room for reasonable disagreement about this stuff. I don't have an issue with someone critiquing something I like, or even calling something I like racist. Sometimes I might even agree with the criticism. What irritates me in discussions like this is when someone insists I agree, if I don't, and then insist affixing the label to me in that way. I just don't understand how you can't see two people could see the same trope in media, one might perceive it as problematic and the other might not. There doesn't need to be one uniform opinion on a given thing: especially some of tropes we've talked about here. Like I said, I see why you might find a given trope racist. In a lot of the cases that have come up, I just don't share your conclusion. And it isn't because I am shutting my ears not listening to you, or I feel like my identity as an RPG player is somehow at threat (RPGs are just one medium I happen to enjoy). I have just heard many of these arguments, thought about them, and disagreed with them or reached a different conclusion.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Actually, video games have been working very hard to address these same issues.

This thread is astonishing to me. Almost 40 pages and why? The original term makes some folks uncomfortable, they've explained why, and fair enough. Like, you don't even have to agree with their reasons to just go, "You know what, if it makes you uncomfortable, then let's just change it." What are folks actually being asked to give up? Replacing one word in game with another word without the baggage is not a sacrifice. It is literally the least we can do.

And as long as the replacement word lacks the baggage, then it's fine. No one will care. Species is fine. It doesn't matter. Not one bit of gameplay changes. Why keep going on, and on, and on, and on (almost 40 pages now!) about something so unbelievably trivial.

It's embarrassing.

Keep in mind most people are not objecting to the change of the word. A lot of what has been debated over the past tens of pages have been other tropes that connected to the OP

 

[Vaalingrade]

What irritates me in discussions like this is when someone insists I agree, if I don't, and then insist affixing the label to me in that way.

Since saying it three times with bold and italics wasn't enough, ley me be very, very clear this time:

NO ONE IS AFFIXING ANY LABEL TO YOU.

And the constant insistence that people are is part of the problem.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Since saying it three times with bold and italics wasn't enough, ley me be very, very clear this time:

NO ONE IS AFFIXING ANY LABEL TO YOU.

And the constant insistence that people are is part of the problem.

Happy to have this conversation but can you please not respond to me in giant red letters in this tone. It is possible we are times speaking past each other. My phrasing wasn't especially clear. But I am going to put you on ignore if you can't be cordial and not speak in a condescending manner to me.

I didn't mean labeling me racist. I meant saying things to me like "You like racist tropes".

 

[Mistwell]

I understand the impulse to want a nice clean, compartmentalized world. Where everything fits neatly into the compartments of good guy or bad guy. A world where you never need to make any difficult moral decisions. A world where you are free to loot and murder your way across the world without ever having to question the morality of what you are doing. One of the main reasons I can understand the desire for that kind of game is that I am a middle class, straight, middle aged white guy. I also understand the incredible amount of privilege in that position.

The game world I described is almost a textbook definition of Colonialism. What seems like a fun, mindless adventure when you are on the top rung of society looks a bit different from the bottom. People from a culture where they have a long history or foreigners coming to loot and murder there way across your county, might see it as a bit more than harmless fun.

There is a big difference between:

1) The official WOTC game should not portray things this way because it can cause harm to some customers and doesn't fit their more modern view on how the setting should be portrayed;

and

2) I am going to judge every single person I find in the world who plays the game in the way I disapprove of as immoral if they play it this way.

You're doing the later. I think it's, at best, incredibly rude. At worst, it's unethical in itself and looks like you lack empathy and the ability to view the topic from anothers positions. It makes tremendous assumptions about why people might like a game like that, their background and experiences, etc..

Why not just stick to your reasons for why you think it's a bad idea for WOTC to portray the world that way, rather than judging your peers like they're violating some objective universal morality which you have a firm grasp of and others are ignorant or evil if they don't.

 

[Yaarel]

Obviously, the topic of the thread will occasionally discuss the technical jargon, "Race".

I mention it on occasion.

But the purpose of this thread is to explore which technical jargon best replaces it.




The other active thread, One D&D permanently removes the term Race, might be more appropriate to focus on the term Race. (Heh, but try not to get that thread locked either.)

 

[codo]

There is a big difference between:

1) The official WOTC game should not portray things this way because it can cause harm to some customers and doesn't fit their more modern view on how the setting should be portrayed;

and

2) I am going to judge every single person I find in the world who plays the game in the way I disapprove of as immoral if they play it this way.

You're doing the later. I think it's, at best, incredibly rude. At worst, it's unethical in itself and looks like you lack empathy and the ability to view the topic from anothers positions. It makes tremendous assumptions about why people might like a game like that, their background and experiences, etc..

Why not just stick to your reasons for why you think it's a bad idea for WOTC to portray the world that way, rather than judging your peers like they're violating some objective universal morality which you have a firm grasp of and others are ignorant or evil if they don't.

I'm sorry. That came across a lot meaner than i intended. I can get snarky, sloppy, and hyperbolic when discussing heated topics. I never meant to call anyone racist just because they like a certain type of game. Just because I called certain games or troupes racist, I never meant that people that like those games are racist.

Everyone has games, or movies or other media, that they like, that is racist. I know I do. There are lots of things from my childhood that looking at now I can see how racist they are now. Just calling a work of media racist is not calling the fans of the media racist.

This just isn't the place for this. It's a to loaded and complicated issue for a d&d forum. I am going bow out now. Have a good night everybody.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't either, but WotC seems to. Look at the gnolls, or the draconians. Apparently you can slap a "monstrosity" label on just about anything and now its ok to kill it.

I share that concern.

When looking thru the MMM, I get the impression that "Monstrosity" can mean "Killable Humanoid".

If I look more carefully, there is some nuance. For example, not all Yuan-Ti Monstrosities are Evil, just certain individuals or cultic organizations. The Skulk is "typically" Chaotic Neutral, but not invariably, and they cease to qualify as playable character because of their oblivion.

But then there are Fey Red Caps who are insta-kill Evil versions of Gnomes, and the situation starts to get icky fast. One can argue, the Red Caps cannot learn and lack culture − likewise, the Xvart.

But putting the Monstrosity label on a what seems like a Humanoid fails to address the problems of Race, especially when some of them, like the Yuan-Ti are a "Player Race".