D&D (2024) What new jargon do you want to replace "Race"?

[Bedrockgames]

My impression is, when Tolkien describes the difference between Elf, Dwarf, and Hobbit, he means EXACTLY the difference between Italian, German, etcetera. Tolkien describes the difference between one Human ethnicity and an other Human ethnicity in the same way as Elf, Dwarf, etcetera. When Tolkien says "race", he means this word in its pseudoscience racist sense that confuses genetics with culture.

I don't get that impression at all. I think he drew on real world material for flavor but I don't think these were either stand ins for ethnic and racial groups, nor do I think the differences were anything like the difference between human groups. But I also think we've had the Tolkien discussion a lot and I am not the best defender of Tolkien's views as I enjoyed the books but haven't immersed myself in the lore like some others here.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But D&D players − at the least the players who I know − mean "species" when describing Elf, Dwarf, and Dragonborn.

When I look back at Gygax and 1e, maybe he gets muddled like Tolkien did. But even if so, D&D normally keeps clear that the Human race is the entire human race comprising every human ethnicity. This sets the precedence that Elf, Dwarf, etcetera are Nonhuman and different species.

I agree with this, which is why I think species is workable as a term. I think the most important thing is to retain this understanding of what races mean in D&D.

 

[Yaarel]

Have you read the Silmarillion? I struggle to think of how anyone could think the difference between elves and men in Tolkien is akin to nationalities. The near infinite difference in lifespan, the differences in death...

It is more like, if some ethnicities have a longer lifespan than other ethnicities. Tolkien viewed this as genetic.

For Tolkien, magic magnifies the differences, but he consistently describes human "races" − even for Elf and Dwarf.

Consider, during his era, British folklore made Elves and Dwarves fairy SPIRITS. But Tolkien radically reimagines them as humans of flesh-and-blood differing mainly by belonging to different "races".

 

[Yaarel]

I don't get that impression at all. I think he drew on real world material for flavor but I don't think these were either stand ins for ethnic and racial groups, nor do I think the differences were anything like the difference between human groups. But I also think we've had the Tolkien discussion a lot and I am not the best defender of Tolkien's views as I enjoyed the books but haven't immersed myself in the lore like some others here.

Well, some argue that Tolkien races are stand-ins for specific groups. For example, the villainous races resemble Asians and Africans.

Perhaps more so, Tolkien imagined what a folklore Elf, Dwarf, or Hobbit might be like if they were a human race.

To this thought experiment, Tolkien expends enormous effort to invent new languages, new customs, new physical appearances, and so on − all appropriate to a pseudoscientific human "race".

 

[Cadence]

It is more like, if some ethnicities have a longer lifespan than other ethnicities. Tolkien viewed this as genetic.

For Tolkien, magic magnifies the differences, but he consistently describes human "races" − even for Elf and Dwarf.

Consider, during his era, British folklore made Elves and Dwarves fairy SPIRITS. But Tolkien radically reimagines them as humans of flesh-and-blood differing mainly by belonging to different "races".

Being flesh and blood doesn't make them human. He uses "race of men" for example using one of the older definitions in the OED and not.thr modern one.

On the other hand, he clearly still has different divisions of men that many have argued map on to human races (in what are often argued are racist ways). And similarly has different groups of elves if you want to try doing a mapping with them.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Well, some argue that Tolkien races are stand-ins for specific groups. For example, the villainous races resemble Asians and Africans.

Perhaps more so, Tolkien imagined what a folklore Elf, Dwarf, or Hobbit might be like if they were a human race.

To this thought experiment, Tolkien expends enormous effort to invent new languages, new customs, new physical appearances, and so on − all appropriate to a pseudoscientific human "race".

Again, we've had this discussion before and I think the points have been made. And I don't think giving them culture, language, new physical appearances means its in line with pseudoscience around race (it is more like a thought experiment of what if other hominids survived and co-existed with humans, with their own cultures and languages). To me that is just interesting. I don't agree with your conclusions here but I also don't want to get the thread bogged down in stuff (especially since there has been a mod warning). That's the last I will say on the Tolkien side of things.

What I will say is Tolkien isn't the only thing that matters when it comes to D&D races. Elrik had an influence, Three Hearts, Three Lions had an influence, they've also taken on a life of their own. But I see demihumans much more in the realm of being different species. They a human-like because they are intelligent hominids, but clearly all humans are a single race in D&D, as you point out, which means that encompasses all the human ethnicities. I think that is one thing that shows pretty clearly these are creatures of a much more substantial difference from humans (than being similar to the differences among humans).

 

[Cadence]

It is more like, if some ethnicities have a longer lifespan than other ethnicities. Tolkien viewed this as genetic.

"Longer lifespan" seems a bit of an understatement?

The lifespan of the one is until the world ends the other is typical real human or (if extended) centuries. The one goes beyond the world to a fate even the Valar don't know when they die, and the other goes to the land of the Valar.

 

[Hriston]

The interesting thing here is I feel very much the opposite, as I do share a lot of the real world concerns people have expressed. But I think when you start turning elves and dwarves into people, in the sense of a people, like Italians, Germans, etc. That is when you start running into problems because the races in D&D are clearly not meant to be anything like the differences between people. In real life, as you say we are one race, we are one species. The difference between someone who is Italian and someone who is Chinese is cultural. And physical differences are superficial. But the physical differences between a dwarf and human are enormous, the difference between an elf and halfling equally so. I think using people to refer to beings in a setting that are visibly a different species from humans, actually opens the door more into that old racialist science and that old way of talking about peoples (which led to the kind of thinking that underpinned Nazi Germany). I am not saying that it would lead there, or that people advocating for peoples are consciously invoking that. But I don't have much issue with race or species in D&D, because I can make the distinction in my mind between a human and an elf, and they don't really compare to the difference between two different human groups in the real world (elves are visibly something way beyond normal human). But when I hear people talk about the elven people, that actually starts to make me much more uncomfortable (and not because it is humanizing elves but because they represent the kind of difference among people that racists used to believe in when they talked about difference races or different peoples in the world).

Your fear of nationalism doesn't trump the need to remove racism from D&D. Peoples have the right to exist in all their diversity and to be recognized as such.

 

[Yaarel]

(it is more like a thought experiment of what if other hominids survived and co-existed with humans, with their own cultures and languages)

We are saying moreorless the same thing here.

Tolkien posits a thought experiment: "what if other hominids coexisted with their own culture and languages?"

... But the more these "hominids" resemble the species sapiens, the more Tolkien relies on the pseudoscience of his era to characterize these "hominids" as if human "races".

I see demihumans much more in the realm of being different species.

I also view Elf etcetera as different species of life. In some ways, they are radically Nonhuman.

For example, the Fey Elf is a spirit of the immaterial Fey plane. There is no flesh-and-blood. There is no DNA. There is no biology.

But the Elf can still a 5e "Humanoid".

They a human-like because they are intelligent hominids.

Nordic traditions color my view here.

In the Norse animistic traditions, mountains, lakes, rivers, sky, sun, sunlight, and daylight, are all conscious living persons.

Elves are the army of sunlight. Literally.

So when this sunlight takes the form of a human of flesh-and-blood, the sunlight is using the same magic that human shamans use to take the form of a wolf or falcon.

While in human form, the sunlight actually is a human, and can reproduce offspring genetically with a human, albeit typically exhibits some telltale evidence of the true form being the sunlight.

Likewise, when a human takes the form of an other animal, the animal typically evidences the true human form, such as human eyes in an otherwise normal animal.

but clearly all humans are a single race in D&D, as you point out, which means that encompasses all the human ethnicities.

Fortunately! This is the saving grace of D&D!

I think that is one thing that shows pretty clearly these are creatures of a much more substantial difference from humans (than being similar to the differences among humans).

Plus, for a fantasy gaming, figuring out ways to carry out thought experiments about what Nonhuman lifeforms is part of the fun.

 

[Yaarel]

"Longer lifespan" seems a bit of an understatement?

The lifespan of the one is until the world ends the other is typical real human or (if extended) centuries. The one goes beyond the world to a fate even the Valar don't know when they die, and the other goes to the land of the Valar.

I am hoping reallife near-future medical technologies will grant all of us longer lifespans.

Perhaps children are being born today who will never die? The longer one stays alive − the better the medical technology gets.

The fantasy Elf is a thought experiment that invites gamers to explore what impact a long lifespan might have on us.



Consider also, in Norse traditions, the æsir sky beings stay immortal by means of magical technology − the golden apples.