What NON-OBVIOUS stuff would you like to see in Revised?

[Hardhead]

I just thought I'd try to get a useful 3.5 thread going. Don't list obvious stuff (which includes, but is not limited to, fixes to Polymorph Other, Shield, Haste, the Ranger, ect!) Also, please don't respond with something like "I'd like to see it not come out." We don't need another one of those threads.


Here's a few things on my list:

1. Good and bad saves should follow the d20 Modern save progressions (I've had a lot of trouble with chacters taking multiple classes and getting through-the-roof saves).
2. Magic item creation subtly changed. Currently, you reqire three times the level of a magical plus to put it on a weapon or armor (level three for a +1 sword, six for a +2, nine for a +3, ect). I'd extend that to all plusses, including Cloaks of Resistance, Amulets of Natural Armor, ect. In the case of ability bonus items, the "bonus" would be halved. So Gloves of Dexterity +2 are "plus one" items for this purpose. My party's spellcaster that makes all of the party gear has abused the lack of a level limit on non-armor/weapon plusses to no end.
3. Possibly divide "Wonders Items" creation feats into small feat sub-categories. I think Wonderous Items is clearly the best Item Creation as it stands.
4. Combine Wand and Stave creation into one feat, so it's useful at both lower and higher levels.
5. Tumble checks should be opposed by reflex saves (as the optional rule in Song and Silence). Bluff (when used in combat to make the opponent flat-footed) should be opposed by Will saves. Casting Defensively should be opposed by something, possible an Attack Roll.
6. Sorcerers should get Eschew Materials for free (which is pretty much just a flavor thing), a few CHA-based skills, and four skill points per level. Without the high INT of wizards, they hardly have any skill points as it is. Not even enough to max Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (Arcana) with a 10 INT.
7. If you take a 5' step away from someone and do something that invokes an attack of opportunity (such as fire an arrow or cast a spell), you should still invoke, just as if you'd moved farther than five feet and done the same thing. This solves both the "Dancing Crossbowman" problem, and makes casting spellin in melee actually dangerous (when combined with an opposed Concentration check).
8. You should only ever get one extra partial action per turn. If you have a Monk's Belt, Haste, and Battletide (from Defenders of the Faith), you still should only get one extra partial action.
9. Druids should gain the physical (but not mental) buff spells (Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Endurance). Druids should also be able to use bows.
10. Just for flavor, I'd like to see Endurance get an animal name. Maybe Ox's Endurance.
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[Xarlen]

I liked all of those excepted the AoO rule. That's essentially the Death of all Mages and Archers (And clerics to a lesser extent). That's really your only line of defense, especially at lower levels.

I'd like to see a few things myself.

1) The ability to customize clerics more to fit their god (I.e. remove heavy armor prof. and give some other meanial thing).

2) Revise Druid's spell list to give them all the nature-related spells, before wizards and clerics (Ice Storm is 5th level, but FLamestrike is 4th? No waterwalk or Weather Control? WTF)

3) Kobolds as a core PC race (I can dream, Can't I?).

4) Lower Animate dead's casting level for wizards, offer them Speak with Dead (remember, they are calling the dead's conciousness, NOT their soul; read spell), or atleast allow them to do More to undead, to make them more effective (WotC templates for Zombies and Skels, for instance).

5) Removing the concept of keeping spells at certain levels simply because it was in 2e.

6) Removing Monk and Paladin multi-classing restrictions.

7) Allow the fighter Intimidate, and Knowledge (War).

8) Organize the Magical Items section a little bit better in the DMG.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

d20 Modern rules for Two Weapon Fighting, including ranged weapons. The only ranged weapon this really improves is the Whip and its cousins.

d20 Modern rules for Combat Martial Arts, too. Instead of giving the Monk special unarmed combat damage, just give him Combat Martial Arts at first level, Improved Combat Martial Arts at sixth level, and Advanced Combat Martial Arts at eleventh. Give them a class ability that gives them an extra d4 unarmed damage at sixteenth level and a fifth at 20. They're still the master of unarmed combat, but other characters can at least be effective.

I'll second Eschew Materials for Sorcerors, but I'd make it a class ability instead of a feat, so that it doesn't invoke the full-round casting time. How would a Sorceror know what materials he needed, and how would their powers first manifest if they needed material components?

On that note, make Quicken Spell an exception to the Spontaneous Metamagic rule. It's already a very expensive feat, and if a Sorceror wants to use Quicken Spell to get around the full-round casting time for other metamagics-- let him. That's a very high spell slot to be using for a low-level spell.

Stupid, foolish hope-- include Psionics in the Core Rules.

Give the Paladin better special abilities at higher levels-- something as simple as gaining bonus feats for the Divine feats from Defenders of the Faith would make the class a lot more interesting past 10th level.

Upgrade the Aristocrat and make it a core class. Keep his skills, hit points, and BAB the same, but give him Leadership as a bonus feat at sixth level and the Psychic Warrior bonus feat progression, for Fighter bonus feats and things like Persuasive, Trustworthy, and Frightful Presence.

Orcs as a PC race. With both Half-Elves and full Elves, things are just a little lopsided for the uglier races.

Another useless hope, since it would ruin backwards compatibility-- incorporate d20 Modern's Occupation rules. Even Wizards have some sort of career to fall back on, if the magic fails them. This could replace the feats Cosmopolitan and Educated.

Subraces in the PHB, with the basic ECL rules. Hopefully including Planetouched.

*sigh* Another hopeless dream-- get rid of the double weapons.

Use better firearms rules in the DMG section on alternate campaign settings. With d20 Modern to base off of, they can include basic stats for firearms, without the inconsistency of a longbow having a better rate of fire than a six-shooter. Include the firearm feats in a sidebar near the weapon statistics.

Have the ECL and Favored Class of every Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, and Giant of Large size or smaller, and every intelligent Outsider with less than, say, five HD. Give a Favored Class and ECL for Dopplegangers, too.

Add Reputation bonus mechanics. This is a good idea, and it's too bad they implemented it after 3e was already on the shelves.

As much maligned as the Ranger is, I only propose this change in the Core Rules: include the Urban Ranger variant in a sidebar next to the Ranger class description.

Put the point-buy rules in the PHB along side the rolling methods.

 

[DDK]

A lotta good suggestions that I agree with for the most part so I'll only refer to the few I didn't like or agree with.

[*]Tumble checks should be opposed by reflex saves (as the optional rule in Song and Silence). Bluff (when used in combat to make the opponent flat-footed) should be opposed by Will saves. Casting Defensively should be opposed by something, possible an Attack Roll.

Doing this would violate the simplicity of the save or check rule as presented in the DMG (p. 94) which I think is a fundamental concept that should be adhered to. If you start making exceptions then we'll have 2nd ed. all over again.

[*]Sorcerers should get Eschew Materials for free (which is pretty much just a flavor thing), a few CHA-based skills, and four skill points per level. Without the high INT of wizards, they hardly have any skill points as it is. Not even enough to max Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (Arcana) with a 10 INT.

DEFINITELY NOT! I would refuse to buy the books if they changed it to be like that on that basis alone.

The opinion that the sorcerer is underpowered is a flawed one. On paper it might seem that way, but in play I've found the sorcerer to be quite powerful enough, thank you very muchly!

I would agree that a change of skill selection, however, would be appropriate, to reflect the fact that they ARE different from wizards.

[*]If you take a 5' step away from someone and do something that invokes an attack of opportunity (such as fire an arrow or cast a spell), you should still invoke, just as if you'd moved farther than five feet and done the same thing. This solves both the "Dancing Crossbowman" problem, and makes casting spellin in melee actually dangerous (when combined with an opposed Concentration check).

I think it's fine as is and any change would upset the system too much and make it even less realistic.

2) Revise Druid's spell list to give them all the nature-related spells, before wizards and clerics (Ice Storm is 5th level, but FLamestrike is 4th? No waterwalk or Weather Control? WTF)

Ok, I said I'd concentrate on the things I didn't like but since I'm about to play a druid, I have to concur that their spell selection is bizarre and definitely needs reworking. Although, some of the spells like Produce Flame, Shillelagh and Call Lightning are DAMN cool and should be left as is.

4) Lower Animate dead's casting level for wizards, offer them Speak with Dead (remember, they are calling the dead's conciousness, NOT their soul; read spell), or atleast allow them to do More to undead, to make them more effective (WotC templates for Zombies and Skels, for instance).

Templates for Zombies and Skeletons is a silly idea. You have different sizes of zombies and skeletons and that's it. You don't have to make major changes to them to apply them to any type of creature and since both are mindless, I see no reason for there to be a template, other than to complicate matters unneccessarily.

And personally, I like the idea of clerics being better necromancers than wizards, but that's just because I also prefer the notion that necromancy is more divination based (as it historically is), even if that isn't represented in the system.

6) Removing Monk and Paladin multi-classing restrictions.

Nooooo, it's bad enough that we have halfling paladins riding goats! We don't need halfling monk/paladin/rogues riding dire dogs!

 

[Droogie]

New interior artwork.

 

[Hardhead]

quote:
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Originally posted by Hardhead
[*]Tumble checks should be opposed by reflex saves (as the optional rule in Song and Silence). Bluff (when used in combat to make the opponent flat-footed) should be opposed by Will saves. Casting Defensively should be opposed by something, possible an Attack Roll.
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Doing this would violate the simplicity of the save or check rule as presented in the DMG (p. 94) which I think is a fundamental concept that should be adhered to. If you start making exceptions then we'll have 2nd ed. all over again.

Well, the first has already been offered as a variant in Song and Silence. I feel the save vs Bluff is necessary because most characters simply don't have a good Sense Motive, and besides, a 20th level fighter shouldn't get "juked" by a first level rogue simply because Sense Motive isn't a class skill for them.

Casting defensively should be opposed by something so that there's a reason to put skill points into Concentration past tenth level.

DEFINITELY NOT! I would refuse to buy the books if they changed it to be like that on that basis alone.

I agree that Sorcerers aren't really underpowered. But not needing non-costly material components is a flavor thing - it wouldn't affect game balance at all. And two extra skill points is hardly going to unbalance a class. If you want to give them some extra CHA-related skills as class skills, they need skill points to spend on them. Right now, most sorcerer skill points go into concentration (at <10 level) Spellcraft, and Knowledge (Arcana).

I think it's fine as is and any change would upset the system too much and make it even less realistic.

]

LESS realistic? You realize, since 5' steps are always safe right now, that a character can take a 5' step back, load a crossbow, and then fire it all without invoking under the current system.? Basically, in my opinion, a 5' step shouldn't be "safe." There's a reason that, in real life, crossbows and bows aren't useful at close range. In D&D, they ARE useful at close range, because you just have to take a 5' step back to keep from suffering any ill effects from using them when someone is trying to hack you with a sword.

 

[DDK]

LESS realistic? You realize, since 5' steps are always safe right now, that a character can take a 5' step back, load a crossbow, and then fire it all without invoking under the current system.?

No they can't. A 5-ft. step is a move action. Loading a crossbow is a move-equivalent action (for a light crossbow). That's yer round pal. Unless you have an extra partial action from something like Haste, you'll have to wait till next round to fire. Sure, when your opponent has take a 5-ft. step forward and smacked you with a full-round, full-attack action you can then take another 5-ft. step (providing you've got all this room to move) back and then fire, but that's hardly a worthwhile way to spend two rounds.

Now with bows, that's a different story.

 

[Hardhead]

No they can't. A 5-ft. step is a move action. Loading a crossbow is a move-equivalent action (for a light crossbow). That's yer round pal. Unless you have an extra partial action from something like Haste, you'll have to wait till next round to fire. Sure, when your opponent has take a 5-ft. step forward and smacked you with a full-round, full-attack action you can then take another 5-ft. step (providing you've got all this room to move) back and then fire, but that's hardly a worthwhile way to spend two rounds.

Nope. Remember, if you use your move action to do something other than move (like load a crossbow), you still get to take a 5' step if you want. No matter what, you always can take a 5' step.

 

[DDK]

Nope. Remember, if you use your move action to do something other than move (like load a crossbow), you still get to take a 5' step if you want. No matter what, you always can take a 5' step.

You're wrong. I'm right. Neener, neener... really, I am... someone will come along and confirm it any minute now...

 

[Caliban]

You're wrong. I'm right. Neener, neener... really, I am... someone will come along and confirm it any minute now...

Your wrong. Check the Move Equivalent Action on page 121 of the PHB.