What on earth is wrong with publishers these days?
- Thread starter Dana_Jorgensen
- Start date
Hammerhead
Explorer
Note to self: Do not buy Dana_Jorgensen's products, or any products by Alternate Realties.
Flyspeck23
First Post
Because, well, people keep postingNellisir said:
Anyway, IMHO this thread is a pretty good read. I've learned something. For instance: What on earth is wrong with publishers these days... it's so obvious once you get pointed in the right direction. And I'm grateful to Dana_Jorgensen for it. In a way
(Edit: Color correction. Blame it on my dilettante genes.)
Last edited:
cybermonkey
First Post
Dimwhit said:I think it's a wonderful thread. The bests thread ever. There should be a Hall of Fame for threads...
Seriously, I did learn some useful things in this thread. Surprisingly.
This has been an educational read for me this morning. I'm about to tackle a book and I thought I would be getting some information about what not to do. The only thing I got out of it, other than the amusing read, some people take themselves way too seriously.
I have written movie reviews off and on for a number of year either for my college newspaper and for the weekly paper that I currently work for and I have followed Roger Ebert's guidelines for writing movie reviews and to some degree they can be applied to other reviews as well... (I modified to apply to book-review writing).
1) Make no pretense of objectivity.
Don't be neutral. A neutral stance comes across like a book review you write in high school instead of critical review.
2) Don't be reluctant to introduce extraneous knowledge.
I wrote a review trashing "The Fast and the Furious." I enjoyed the film up until the momment I realized that it was nothing more than an elaborate remake of "Point Break." Was that the intention of the screenwriter and director? Probably not, but that extraneous knowledge did influence how I liked the film.
3) Don't be bashful about writing in the first person.
This is your opinion, don't shy away from it.
4) Don't predict which group of readers will or will not enjoy the book.
The review is your opinion, you have no say about others.
5) Don't distance yourself from the actual experience of reading the book.
If you struggled with the book (whether grammar, layout or even the rules) then you have the right to say you struggled with the book. On the other side of the coin if you liked something about it, no matter how small, say what you liked.
6) Don't overwrite the first paragraph.
From Ebert's own words:
"The genuine critic will write in such a way as to acknowledge that he had a subjective personal experience that he wants to share with the reader, and which reminded him of other films or other subjects. He will wear his knowledge lightly and never presume to speak for others than himself."
In all accounts, Dana was correct in the initial reviews. However, Dana did cross the line starting this thread and asserting that there was something wrong with "dilettante publishers."
Final Notes:
The email issue should have died on Dana's end with a simple: "Thanks for taking time to read my review." If someone complains about a review you have written, let them vent. Don't keep adding gasoline to the fire.
Didn't PT Barnum say: "There's a sucker born every minute"?
Fast Learner
First Post
Please
let
this
thread
die,
for
God's
sake.
let
this
thread
die,
for
God's
sake.
Qwillion
First Post
I don't think this thread should die.
I have recently started work on my first review for Silven.com, they wanted me to do one of Arcana unearthed and I learned a lot of what not to do when doing a review. I think Monte Cooks guidelines are very good as are Mr. Eberts.
Me I am going to pay attention to this thread and hope to write a good review.
I have recently started work on my first review for Silven.com, they wanted me to do one of Arcana unearthed and I learned a lot of what not to do when doing a review. I think Monte Cooks guidelines are very good as are Mr. Eberts.
Me I am going to pay attention to this thread and hope to write a good review.
Umm..ok, I'm going to dodge the verbal bullets flying through this thread and just respond to the original post:
First, let me explain where this post is coming from: I was recently at a friend's RPG store and was talking to a customer about a product. He asked what I did for a living and I told him "Oh, I write for a d20 e-publishing company." And the response (given with a snort and a dismissive wave of the hand): "Oh, that's easy. Anyone can get into d20 work." ?! Now, the post:
I agree with Dana that there should be a level of professionalism expected in any published product - be it PDF, print, or whatever. Professional publishing companies have always carefully screened their submitted works for those items suitable for publishing, and then have taken steps to ensure that the products are the best they can be.
What I've noticed as a consumer is that the d20 e-publishing seems, on the whole, lacking of this professionalism. Some companies operate like professionals, but most are more akin to fly-by-night operations that just want their products on the market, and do not care to take the time to learn the appropriate methods of e-publishing, marketing, etc.
As a writer, though, I can see from another viewpoint, as well. Writers, if they can ever land that "first" assignment (which, unfortunately, in the "professional publisher" world is difficult, to say the least), will work to put their thoughts on paper sometimes for months (or even years). While this doesn't give them the right to expect nothing but rave reviews, it does enlist a certain expectancy for viable, professional criticism. Most negative commentary I've seen on RPGNow is not professional, constructive criticism, but things like "This book sucks. Don't buy it". And, even if a writer's book does deserve that kind of commentary, it is unnecessary and unprofessional (though I'm willing to bet most of it is not written to be a "professional" review). And most writers, as well, tend to guard their work that they've spent so much time on like a mother grizzly with a new cub.
I suppose, to make this post a little shorter, I'll just get to the point: with the flood of unprofessional writers, publishers, and critics in this new d20 OGL industry, it is a wonder that any of our products sell. People are putting their desire to get as many products out there as possible before their duty to make those products professional. People are putting their desire to write a product and sell it before their duty to use spellcheck and edit. And people are putting their own products' survival before their duty to be professional with their critiques (and, no, I'm not talking about you, Dana...I've read some of your reviews and agree with most points made).
We as publishers, writers, and critics need to maintain our professionalism. Publishers and critics are supposed to be the runners of the show, and should behave as such. Some of the products flooding the market should never have made electronic print, I'm sorry to say. We owe it to d20 OGL and to the customers to maintain a level of quality and professionalism in this industry. If I was Wizards I would have already snatched away the OGL, due to the flood of less-than-professional products attached to the d20 name now. For God's sake, do your jobs, and do them at a level that they are supposed to be done at. Learn programming to make your products better if you are going to put them out there. Hire an editor (or at least use spellcheck). Look at what's out there and learn the trends. Look at what's out there and learn formatting by example. If you need help, see if a company you like will offer advice (even book titles for you to pick up to learn what you need to know). Otherwise, what's the point? If you don't plan on being professional, why start a professional company?
I'm sorry if I seem like I'm being harsh. I'm not trying to insult anyone in particular, but I think we've all noticed this problem. I think that most of the products that should not be on the market would have been better if their publishers/writers would have known more about what was expected of them. Perhaps someone that is a professional company can write a book/start a class to help teach all of this to those that want to start their own company, but lack the skills? Or are there programs like that out there already?
I guess my main point is this: the lack of professionalism does not just affect your product. It, in fact, affects the reputation of everyone involved with d20 publishing and e-publishing. As the conversation at the beginning of this post states, the common attitude is that what we do is nothing. Anyone off the street can do it. So, work to disprove that statement, so all of us can enjoy a good reputation.
First, let me explain where this post is coming from: I was recently at a friend's RPG store and was talking to a customer about a product. He asked what I did for a living and I told him "Oh, I write for a d20 e-publishing company." And the response (given with a snort and a dismissive wave of the hand): "Oh, that's easy. Anyone can get into d20 work." ?! Now, the post:
I agree with Dana that there should be a level of professionalism expected in any published product - be it PDF, print, or whatever. Professional publishing companies have always carefully screened their submitted works for those items suitable for publishing, and then have taken steps to ensure that the products are the best they can be.
What I've noticed as a consumer is that the d20 e-publishing seems, on the whole, lacking of this professionalism. Some companies operate like professionals, but most are more akin to fly-by-night operations that just want their products on the market, and do not care to take the time to learn the appropriate methods of e-publishing, marketing, etc.
As a writer, though, I can see from another viewpoint, as well. Writers, if they can ever land that "first" assignment (which, unfortunately, in the "professional publisher" world is difficult, to say the least), will work to put their thoughts on paper sometimes for months (or even years). While this doesn't give them the right to expect nothing but rave reviews, it does enlist a certain expectancy for viable, professional criticism. Most negative commentary I've seen on RPGNow is not professional, constructive criticism, but things like "This book sucks. Don't buy it". And, even if a writer's book does deserve that kind of commentary, it is unnecessary and unprofessional (though I'm willing to bet most of it is not written to be a "professional" review). And most writers, as well, tend to guard their work that they've spent so much time on like a mother grizzly with a new cub.
I suppose, to make this post a little shorter, I'll just get to the point: with the flood of unprofessional writers, publishers, and critics in this new d20 OGL industry, it is a wonder that any of our products sell. People are putting their desire to get as many products out there as possible before their duty to make those products professional. People are putting their desire to write a product and sell it before their duty to use spellcheck and edit. And people are putting their own products' survival before their duty to be professional with their critiques (and, no, I'm not talking about you, Dana...I've read some of your reviews and agree with most points made).
We as publishers, writers, and critics need to maintain our professionalism. Publishers and critics are supposed to be the runners of the show, and should behave as such. Some of the products flooding the market should never have made electronic print, I'm sorry to say. We owe it to d20 OGL and to the customers to maintain a level of quality and professionalism in this industry. If I was Wizards I would have already snatched away the OGL, due to the flood of less-than-professional products attached to the d20 name now. For God's sake, do your jobs, and do them at a level that they are supposed to be done at. Learn programming to make your products better if you are going to put them out there. Hire an editor (or at least use spellcheck). Look at what's out there and learn the trends. Look at what's out there and learn formatting by example. If you need help, see if a company you like will offer advice (even book titles for you to pick up to learn what you need to know). Otherwise, what's the point? If you don't plan on being professional, why start a professional company?
I'm sorry if I seem like I'm being harsh. I'm not trying to insult anyone in particular, but I think we've all noticed this problem. I think that most of the products that should not be on the market would have been better if their publishers/writers would have known more about what was expected of them. Perhaps someone that is a professional company can write a book/start a class to help teach all of this to those that want to start their own company, but lack the skills? Or are there programs like that out there already?
I guess my main point is this: the lack of professionalism does not just affect your product. It, in fact, affects the reputation of everyone involved with d20 publishing and e-publishing. As the conversation at the beginning of this post states, the common attitude is that what we do is nothing. Anyone off the street can do it. So, work to disprove that statement, so all of us can enjoy a good reputation.
Crothian
First Post
Well, first off I wouldn't include critics into this conversation. That's not to say there are not any unprofessional critics and reviewers out there, but its a heck of a lot easier to review something then write; especially on the net. Critics of everything and everyone on the net are a dime a dozen.
There are always going to be unprofessional people in a business, especially a small one like RPGs were fans get into the business side. It's not hard to publish a pdf, but I imagine it is hard to publish a good one.
I also don't see telling people they are unprofessional helping. Most people find that rude especially when they didn't ask for your opinion. Many times when you think you are trying to help, you (and you not meaning anyone specific just people trying to help) come off to them as unprofessional.
The pdf rpg scene is filled with many, many small time and part time publishers. Some are good, some are not. Let it sort itself out. The unprofessional ones and the sloppy ones will fall to the wayside. People will find out first hand exactly how difficult the profession really is and after a big dose of reality many will go back to their day job and pursue RPGs as the hobby it is.
There are always going to be unprofessional people in a business, especially a small one like RPGs were fans get into the business side. It's not hard to publish a pdf, but I imagine it is hard to publish a good one.
I also don't see telling people they are unprofessional helping. Most people find that rude especially when they didn't ask for your opinion. Many times when you think you are trying to help, you (and you not meaning anyone specific just people trying to help) come off to them as unprofessional.
The pdf rpg scene is filled with many, many small time and part time publishers. Some are good, some are not. Let it sort itself out. The unprofessional ones and the sloppy ones will fall to the wayside. People will find out first hand exactly how difficult the profession really is and after a big dose of reality many will go back to their day job and pursue RPGs as the hobby it is.
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