What ruins a campaign?

[Nonlethal Force]

Actually, Dungeons and Dragons has now attained the crown of the Most. Complex. Roleplaying. Game. Evar.

Rolemaster isn't as complex as Dungeons and Dragons, I guarantee it.

Um, no. If the DM allows all the non-Core sources, then I'll grant that it has more pages to read. There might even be a few complex rules. But that is the DM shooting himself in the foot. If you want a nice, easy-to-play game out there ... play Core Rules only.

Of course, grapples and turning could be done way better. But as it is, my players rather dislike grappling because it slows the game down to a crawl. So we ignore it. But two somewhat used rules does not a complex game make. DMs who allow multiple sources does a complex game make. [Note, there is nothing wrong with this. I myself allow most Complete, Dragon Magic, Draconomicon, UA (selections), BoED, and a few others that have caught my interest. But I like the game that way and I choose to play the game that way. Core D&D is not that complex!]

 

[rgard]

I've added numbers, in the quote:
3 and 4 are definite problems that can sink a game. 2 is only a problem if the DM is inconsistent with the wingings; but if one session's wing becomes next session's houserule then you're on solid ground. 1 can be a problem in that the game might lose a player, but that doesn't always kill the whole campaign.

5 is what keeps a good campaign going as a good campaign!

Lanefan

Yikes, 5 is depressing! I much prefer a mix of success and almost death. IMHO, it's no fun always sounding retreat, "Run Away!"

 

[rgard]

First off, before complaining things are too hard, examine your tactics. I've seen countless times where the players did not work together in combat, rather each running to the enemy to showboat their kewl powaz with no plan whatsoever.

And heaven forbid they give up a few initiative ticks so the party acts as a cohesive unit. I just love it when Mr. Improved Initiative rolls higher than the rest of his party combined and rushes out there to get his beloved sneak attack, only to be torn apart in the mid teens of the initiative cycle.

If players fail to operate as a well oil combat machine, sometimes the mooks supply the [flaming] oil.

C'mon Frank, I think we can take Elf Witch's point at face value. I've read enough of her posts to know the GM in some of those cases was a twit.

 

[rgard]

Having kids.

Ah, but that is only a short term ruin! Mine are 14, 12 and 9...good enough for my campaign and they are a captive audience!

 

[Jeff Wilder]

It seems like most people are answering, "What breaks up a group?" rather than "What kills a campaign?" We've been lucky enough to keep a healthy group -- three, in fact -- going for several years, so I'll answer the latter.

In my case, I tend to overestimate what my players can handle. It generally becomes a problem right when D&D PCs and NPCs take their first leap in power ... i.e., around 5th level. My players aren't optimizers, and only a couple of strong D&D tacticians, so if I go by the CR system, they're often overmatched.

Combined with that, my players can be stubborn in combat.

Add in even a little bit of bad luck, and a TPK becomes possible, even in even-CR fights.

My first campaign -- the adventure path beginning with Sunless Citadel -- ended in a near-TPK at level 4. The monster responsible was a rather notorious CR 10 encounter in Forge of Fury, though I altered the (utterly ridiculous as written) encounter to have the creature immediately willing to negotiate before any deaths. My stubborn players would have none of it.

I tried resurrecting that campaign with a replacement party, which ended in a TPK at level 5. In that case, the killer monster was a troll. CR was 5, with five PCs. Supposed to be a relatively easy fight.

My next try -- a Freeport game -- went substantially longer, to level 10 or so, at which point they were wiped out by a diviner vampire with the mind fog spell and a nearby fathomless chasm. CR was 12. To be fair, the vampire's advantage probably pushed the CR up by one more.

Next came a Scarred Lands game, which ended with a TPK at level 5 in a modified Sons of Gruumsh adventure. This one was a combination "fair fight" -- i.e., CR 8 or so -- combined with simply abysmal luck on the part of my players. Luck on the order of failing to make DC 5 balance checks, multiple rounds in a row.

My current game is an Eberron game. We're approaching the climax of Whisper's of the Vampire's Blade. The bad guy is CR 8 as written, but IMO a weak CR 8. My party is level 6, with 5 PCs, and I want the fight to be tough, so I've upped the CR to 10. I'm concerned that I'm overestimating them again, but in the last session they demolished an EL 8 encounter, including a CR 6 fighter. Hopefully I'm reading their abilities accurately this time.

 

[VirgilCaine]

My first campaign -- the adventure path beginning with Sunless Citadel -- ended in a near-TPK at level 4. The monster responsible was a rather notorious CR 10 encounter in Forge of Fury, though I altered the (utterly ridiculous as written) encounter to have the creature immediately willing to negotiate before any deaths. My stubborn players would have none of it.

Could you describe in more detail what happened? Did the PCs want blood after one death and wouldn't leave?

And it's not ridiculous. I mean, yes, it's CR 10. They tell you why the creature is there, though.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

My first campaign ended due to player attrition due to RL. My second campaign ended because all the characters were 20+ level and it just wasn't challening. My third campaign (children of the 2nd) ended because of DM burnout. My fourth campaign ended because of some players moving away and my renewed interest in the SCA. My fifth campaign ended because I moved away. The next campaign was a new set of players in the same campaign setting but RL demands became too strong. One of my top players moved to this area so I started up a sequel campaign with him and my top player from the 4th campaign. That ended due to DM & Player burnout. I tried an 8th campaign with the same players as the 7th but scheduling became a real problem. I started up a 9th campaign not realising it would be my last. I had the players excited about playing a Viking campaign complete with rule changes. After a couple of months it became apparent that they would rather play a WotC-worshipping campaign (actually the two guys from the 7th & 8th dropped due to burnout). We parted ways.

In summary, some campaigns ended due to scheduling, some due to burnout, and some to mismatched expectations. But I think it's really about players and DMs growing apart, whether it's RL taking us different directions, getting older, or wanting to play different kinds of games.

When a campaign comes together with a passionate storyteller and committed players it is the absolute most fun I've had in my 44+ years of life. Unfortunately most of my D&D experience has fallen short.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

And it's not ridiculous. I mean, yes, it's CR 10. They tell you why the creature is there, though.

And it's ridiculous. By the time PCs can possibly see the creature, they are in range of its attacks. Those attacks against 4th- or even 5th-level PCs equals at least one death.

Those people who claim the encounter isn't ridiculous -- or even that they've beaten it -- are either DMs who (rightly) went soft on their players or players whose DMs (rightly) went soft on them. Period. If the encounter is played strictly as written, it kills at least one PC.

 

[Elf Witch]

I find that the reverse is usually just as bad (or worse). When a player/DM refuses to wing anything, needs to keep track of every second of every day in campaign, requires alignment/motivational justification for the act of picking one's nose, etc., the game begins to take on a rather laborious quality. I have a DM/player who is so obsessed with keeping track of every detail and ensuring absolute "realism" (*ummm... magic?!?*) that I often feel more like I'm working than playing a game. Her strict adherence to things like average character wealth and the unwillingness to improvise to provide characters with the opportunity to pursue prestige classes without training for five levels beforehand... when the prestige class wasn't published until yesterday... it makes the game suck. For the sake of realism, the party has a chance of encountering a hostile Great Wyrm Red Dragon during a random night encounter at 15th level... It breathes. We die. There goes a year of gaming... break out 4d6!! A DM/player needs to be able to rewrite the letter of the law a little bit to enhance the gaming experience of everyone involved.

As far as weighting things in favor of the NPCs, I don't have a problem with starting a challenging adventure with a little extra firepower, but when the power level of an NPC party member makes the PCs seem superfluous on a consistent basis thoughout a campaign, there's definitely a problem.

At the other end of the spectrum, I have (had) a DM who consistently responds to good play and planning by breaking out the +10 vorpal Nerf bat. "What? You cast a spell that I expressly approved which kills my BBEG in one round? First of all, it backfires and affects you instead because of divine intervention. Oh, yeah--it also drains all spellcasting ability from your character. You are now a 20th-level wizard with no spells. Permanently." Ugh... Yeah, we all basically shunted that guy off to another dimension. The sad part is that he used to run some of the best games I've ever played in my life. The guy can play 30 different NPCs in a session and you can tell them all apart each and every time you encounter them, describe a scene off the cuff so vividly that you can smell it... What a shame.

Don't get me started on cheating players...

Let me explain what I mean by winging it. The DM does not understand the combat rules so he makes rulings on what makes sense to him.

So for example under the grapple rules he deciced that rogues because of their natural high dex and if they have ranks in escape artist can not be grappled using a strength check you have to use a dex check. Which means that a strength fighter will have a hard time every grappling a rogue. He based this on the greased pig theory. He adnited he didn't know the rules when he made the ruling and when he read the rules he just threw them out because they didn't make sense.

Another time a player who was down to 1 hit point on her round disengaged did a full defensive retreat ao that she could get out of melee to take a potion. The PC had a movement rate of 30 and was ten feet away from a death knight in full plate armor. Under the rules there should have been no way for the death knight to reach her and use all his attacks. But the DM ruled that he charged reached her and got to do a full attack which was two and of course he hit with both killing the character.

A lot of his decision are based on what he thinks sounds right memories of Ad&D rules and the rules he played under in 3.0.

This leaves a player always having to guess on what combat manuever to use because you can never be sure what rule he is going to use. Believe me this makes for a not fun game.

 

[Jedit]

Mainly being military our games are ended due to people being stationed elsewhere, but the one that sticks me is a buddy of mine so lost in a pyrimad scheme that those in it with him convinced him that by spending Saturdays playing D&D was costing him money that he needed/must charge everyone in the group 25$ for 2 saturday games at about 2 hours a session with the possibilty of canceling if he felt his "buisness" was more important that day. So yeah charging people to play definitly kills a game (with exception to paying for munchies).