what rules do you favor?

[Crothian]

Which is why 3.5 is so great, no house rules needed. I don't see this a problem with the rules as a problem with the people you game with who like to abuse the rules. Just because it's technjically possible by the rules does not make it right. Besides, rule 0 makes all house rules not house rules anymore.

 

[Desdichado]

What do you mean what difference does it make? You're the one making sweeping generalizations based on your play style and saying that it objectively means the game is worse, end of discussion, blah blah blah. It seems to me that's the crux of your whole position, and yet you ignore it as a triviality. I don't know anyone who needs those house rules, because I don't know anyone who would play such a lame game as to cause those situations to come up. But if you enjoy it, feel free to play it and complain. No skin off my back. But if you want to come to a generic forum and make claims of some kind of objectivity based on problems that I know of no one else having, then be prepared to be challenged on your assumptions.

 

[Desdichado]

Also, those problems you describe (here and in other threads) are to me more symptomatic of a poor DM than a poor ruleset. Every RPG ruleset will have rules that don't quite work right, or require GM interpretation, or what have you. I've yet to see an RPG that doesn't have that disclaimer in it to begin with. GM rulings always trump what's printed.

That's not an excuse for poorly written rules in the first place, but lets face it; no writer can anticipate every possible use of every possible rule, and a lot of unforeseen synergies will creep into the system. Very few players will ever, ever have a problem with them, though. Denigrating the ruleset because of the potential of a problem in the hands of players that are completely alien from any type of play style I've ever seen isn't a very useful or helpful thing to do, IMO.

 

[jarlaxlecq]

Also, those problems you describe (here and in other threads) are to me more symptomatic of a poor DM than a poor ruleset. Every RPG ruleset will have rules that don't quite work right, or require GM interpretation, or what have you. I've yet to see an RPG that doesn't have that disclaimer in it to begin with. GM rulings always trump what's printed.

That's not an excuse for poorly written rules in the first place, but lets face it; no writer can anticipate every possible use of every possible rule, and a lot of unforeseen synergies will creep into the system. Very few players will ever, ever have a problem with them, though. Denigrating the ruleset because of the potential of a problem in the hands of players that are completely alien from any type of play style I've ever seen isn't a very useful or helpful thing to do, IMO.

well said.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I'm so sorry...

I thought I was on the RULES BOARD where people talked about the rules. The things that the books actually say. Not a place to sit around and be touchy feely about how we like to play the game, and how we can ignore all the things we don't like.

That's presumably for the HOUSE RULES BOARD down the hall. The place where we can ignore the rules entirely and sit around playing magical tea party with our friends - both the stuffed animals and the flesh and blood kind. If we are talking on a message board, the assumptions of your play group and my play group don't matter - because we are far away from each other and don't interact with each other in person.

I'm over here, you are over there. The only reason to discuss rules is to determine what the rules actually say, and what we want to do about them. So if you are shocked and horrified by the prospect of using Shapechange to mine Balor Form for money - good. It's a bad rule, it's supposed to be alarming. It isn't alarming because I am a bad person, it's alarming because the rule is poorly conceived. This is Andy Collins' fault, not mine.

If you don't want to play with people turning into Phoenixes in order to create dozens of more Phoenixes - I suggest that you play with the 3e version of Shapechange where you in fact, could not do that.

I don't want to play in a game where the DM throws something at me everytime I do something more effective than he was expecting. There's no incentive to succeed in such an environment. I want the rules to stop all the infinite power abuses and I am willing to employ house rules to make it so.

I am not willing to put up with crap from you just because you think that thinking about how the rules interact is somehow sinful.

-Frank

 

[Desdichado]

OK, so instead we have to put up with your crap instead. I see.

I"m not shocked or alarmed, I find you to be an alarmist instead. Apparently that point was too subtle for you, though. Your approach is obviously too blunt to have that type of discussion. Although I notice that insults certainly aren't beneath you.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Although I notice that insults certainly aren't beneath you.

Of course not.

You went on for several posts about how you were glad you didn't play with me - which is in fact an insult disguised as an "observation". Well that's great, but unlike you I am an honest man.

If I think you suck, I'll say: Josh, I think you suck. I won't say "Fortunately, I don't have to deal with things like this from you, because my group doesn't contain people who suck." Both sentences in fact say the same thing - which is that I think that Joshua sucks - but one is honest, and the other is dishonest.

So after you went through all that effort to insult me without "actually" insulting me - I cut straight to the heart and made fun of you without pretending that I was doing otherwise. You see, the statement:

I don't know anyone who needs those house rules, because I don't know anyone who would play such a lame game as to cause those situations to come up.

is saying that:

1> You feel superior to me.
2> I am "lame".
3> Everyone you know is "less lame" than me.

That's really insulting. As doubtless, it was intended.

But don't go crying about how the level of discourse is now one of gradeschool bullying - you brought that out yourself. So put a sock in it - or I shall taunt you a second time.

-Frank

 

[Deset Gled]

I can definetally say I never enjoyed 1.0 or 2.0 very much, and didn't play with them much, either. 3.0 was a great change. With a few exceptions, I think 3.5 is even better. I love the new damage reduction, the new weapon sizes, the changes to a lot of the spells, and the changes to the classes.

My only major complaint is the Wildshape and Polymorph chain, which I plan to use the Masters of the Wild version of. Minor points: the change to animal companions hurts one of my player's characters (she had a friggin zoo walking around with her), but will make things much simpler in the long run. The changes on shuriken also ruins one of my characters, but I always thought that character was edging on cheesy anyway.

 

[Desdichado]

Wow, aren't you brilliant. You see, it's not dishonesty to not say you suck, it's a bit of politeness. Not one of my strong suits, but I can see it's even less so for you. You see, after I observed that the "problem" you describe is one that I can't imagine anyone actually having, you decided to post a condescending and insulting post. Following that, I had no problem whatsoever pointing out that I think your game is lame if you routinely have problems like that.

Be that as it may, it's quite obvious from your responses on this thread and others that you really have no interest in a reasonable discussion relative to this topic or any other. You truly do live up to your name. Welcome to the ignore list.

 

[Norfleet]

In third edition, you could gate in any named individual - like for example Lord Soth - and they had to do whatever you told them to do for 1 round per level. All you had to do was be on a plane that wasn't your home plane.

So you could go to the Negative Energy Plane (with a little NEP for your party), and then force the BBEG to do what you want for 17 rounds. You can substitute the Plane of Fire or any other unpleasant area.

So Lord Soth takes damage every round while he is hand rolling taquitos for you, and the entire party is clubbing him to death while he isn't able to defend himself.

Neat trick. Although I personally, wouldn't have picked the combination of the Negative Energy Plane and Lord Soth as an example. Isn't he undead, so doesn't negative energy heal him?