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D&D 4E What Should 4e magic be like?


First Post
Lanefan said:
Where I'd rather have the powers available for other uses than the broken combo, and just restrict or ban what's broken.

Since those combos often involve very specific abilities, you would either have to make a Core Book 4: The Restrictions' Manual (page 257: "You may not get the power attack feat if you learn the spell fist of fury or vice versa"), or you'd have to ban whole ranges of character choices because of one combo ("wizards may not multiclass as fighters and vice versa" sidebar: "that's because what you can do with power attack and fist of fury")

Neither is very desirable. So it's better to design the abilities in question so that the combo doesn't work (power attack would not work with fist of fury styles, or fist of fury would not have that specific application that would make it broken with power attack) and don't create a game made up of restrictions instead of rules.

Part of the fun is finding the broken combo, even if the DM rules against it later. :)

What broken combo? If you take the big restrictions brush and aply it generously, the broken combos won't be there (along with a lot of things that are perfectly right).

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Kae'Yoss said:
Bruiser: "I dismiss fox's cunning and eagle's splendour."

Evil Archmage: "I cast Fist of Fury"

Bruiser: "Bring me my Long Rubber Glove :]"

As you know, I am a man of many special needs.
Prepare to receive the Fist of Fury.
Eenie, meenie, minie, mo,
I wonder where my Glove will go?

My finger points. You know, about 1/2 of that movie is pure gold, and the other 1/2 is unwatchable. I still adore it for the golden glowing 1/2. It leaves me feeling like a nice man, with happy feelings, all of the time!!!


First Post
dragonlordofpoondari said:
My finger points. You know, about 1/2 of that movie is pure gold, and the other 1/2 is unwatchable. I still adore it for the golden glowing 1/2. It leaves me feeling like a nice man, with happy feelings, all of the time!!!

Ah, another connoisseur of the fine arts!

Always remember: You must be like the monkey in the Piñata - hiding amongst the candy, hoping the kids won't break through with the sticks!


First Post
Things I would like to see in 4E magic:

-- Adapt the psionic rules for costs and augmentation. Clean up the mess the system is becoming with all these subsystems (various types of focus, infusions, etc).
-- If you want "Vancian" magic then say that you can prepare X spells in a spell matrix or whatever but can cast those as much as you want with your power points. And you can switch them out in a few minutes of concentration and Spellcraft check or something. Some people really like the tactical nature of spellcasting. Have a "Cantrip" slot where you can place spells that become "per encounter" and free, or simply "always on" (would probably be eaten up by buffs and simplify accounting for NPCs and PCs).
-- Rethink spell balance and ditch the most problematic ones right off (Wish). Spells as powerful and useful as Rope Trick are really out of place power-wise where they are now. It's telling that the most powerful spells a mage has are NOT the direct damage ones, but those that incapacitate others (often trivially easily at CR-appropriate levels) or allow the group to simply short-circuit entire encounters/adventures.
-- Allow some degree of recharging outside of "mana potions" or waiting for the amazing power of the D&D sunrise. Like trading 1 power point for some subdual damage or something (like Body Fuel but not quite so laughably out of whack for cost/effect).
-- Do something about polymorph type spells so they don't end up dominating buffs and optimization builds.
-- Clean up buff bonuses and stacking so you don't see as many monstrous buff monsters that make a laughingstock of CR. This comes down to doing something about the power of magic though - it needs a nerf or a reassessment of what CR should be for encounters.
-- Make counterspelling not a waste of wordcount for once. Should be a lot easier with a PP-based system.
-- Ditch the divine/arcane divide. It's just a problematic "D&Dism."
-- Make certain the rules explicitely do something about "dipping" into classes to cherry-pick overpowered abilities. Slim down the number of PrCs by making the core classes actually worth continuing.
-- Allow magic items to be recharged ... ugh.

For those worried about "spells all you want" it already exists in the form of warlocks for damage, and the "healing you with fireballs" warlock variant (Eldritch Disciple). I suspect that because the warlock and similar martial classes are so popular we'll be seeing them explode in scope before 4e anyways.

And as a general 4e hope:
-- Ditch the HUNDREDS of useless Feats, make class abilities scale for once and have feats be the "special tricks" they were supposed to be and not a crude stand-in for skills (Craft feats) or ways to build a decent specialist (lol Toughness). At the very least combine all those idiotic +2/+2 and +3 skill feats together for criminies sake.


First Post
I'd like to see a mix.

"Wizards," who still cast using Vancian. Sub-divisions of the "Wizard" class chosen at first level. (Specialists and Generalists--Generalists working much like they do now, specialists probably being a bit more focused than the current, with fewer spell schools, more spells, and various extra perks like PHB II and UA give them). No "Psi Points" or anything like that, but see below.

"Warlocks," as have become so popular recently (Dragon Warlocks! Fey Warlocks! Celestial Warlocks! Fiendish Warlocks! Probably Psion Warlocks!), being made more of a general base class. Very few spells, infinite castings.

"Sorcerers," like the current War Mage or Beguiler, who know a wide range of spells but have limited castings per day and are very limited in focus. Edit: Actually, maybe make these the "Psi Points" version of casting. Same effect, really.

Also, no Divine/Arcane distinction.
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First Post
I have been pinging around a few idea in my head.

Invocation magic.
Throw out spells a day and prepared spells. Keep maximum spell a day and Spells know. Spells are gained not automatically, but by rolling a Invocation Check as per the rules of UA. When ever player would gain a new spell (even at first level) they would instead roll the check. Any spell they make the check for they can cast. They can make new checks for spells when they level up.

Result? Near random spells the can cast a infinite amount of time.

...More to come later...


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