D&D General (+) What Should Go in a D&D Book About Dungeons?

[UngainlyTitan]

This post is kind of fascinating.

The thread in the One D&D forum about "bringing back dungeon exploration to D&D" got me imagining...wishing for, really...a supplement specifically for DMs who want to emphasize good old fashioned dungeons. I wouldn't care if it's official WotC or 3rd Party. I'd probably buy it in a heartbeat without even reading the table of contents, but it's also fun to think about what might be in that table of contents?

Ideas? (And this is a '+' thread because if you want to pooh-pooh the idea of 'bringing back dungeons' the other thread is a fine place for such cynicism.)

My off-the-top-of-my-head ideas:

• A system for keeping track of time, with rules and suggestions for how to use that to add pressure
• Other ideas for keeping the tension and pressure up (without counting torches)
  • E.g. Rests: ways to make rests something players are less eager to take (ties into the time thing)

This entry and the comment about not counting torches brings me back to the thread on "Combat as war or sport" and a video by Matt Colville where he ask what kind of Game 5e is and give his views on OSR. In particular the intense inventory management style game the location is a challenge, in particular it challenges the players. The adventurer is a competent adventurer because the player manages their resources well and that means inventory management. Having a bag of flour to detect invisible creatures, or mirrors to peek around corners and enough torches is an important part of the game.
So the first thing that should be discussed is, what is the dungeon(location) for in the game. If location as a challenge then it should discuss inventory management, the importance of lighting and and resource attrition and the random encounters suitable for that kind of play.

If, on the other hand, the characters are competent adventures then perhaps one should assume that routing adventuring gear is part of their standard inventory, absorb the maintenance of stocks (spell components) etc in to the living costs and perhaps introduce a rule for an inventory check to see of the character has some exotic item that the party might suddenly wish they had like a bag of flour or 100 meters of string or sealing wax or whatever.

Then there is "Why are you here?" You could be here to rescue the villages or prevent the Dread Necromancer sacrificing Mr Tiddles (the Queen's elderly tabby cat) to summon an eldritch abomination. All of the above on the challenge of the environment could apply but many groups are not interested in that kind of play. They are more invested in the opposition from NPCs and their minions.
Here you could bring up discussion on the 5 room dungeon, more story focused playstyles and how they contast to sandbox and exploration type play.
A discussion of exploration rules and some kind of skill challenge mechanic would be useful here.

All the elements below could then be discussed in the context of the various play agendas.

• Rules for mapping, backtracking, and getting lost (i.e., if you want to map carefully, it consumes more time!)
• Traps!
  • I really don't like WotC's take on traps; I would want @iserith...or The Angry DM...to write this chapter
  • I imagine this chapter containing both guidance on how to design and DM traps that aren't just empty dice rolls, and also a whole trove of fleshed out traps based on that guidance
• Puzzles! (Similar to traps)
  • This wouldn't necessarily have to be the sorts of puzzles designed by evil geniuses (who apparently have phobias about good old fashioned keys); it could just refer to anything the party has to figure out. "There's a rope bridge spanning the chasm, but the ropes look rotted and most of the planks are missing..."
• Secret Doors! (Similar to traps)
• Random tables for fleshing out dungeons.
  • Not (necessarily) to generate a whole dungeon, but for when you are just filling in details or looking for inspiration)
• A whole chapter on light and darkness, full of juicy guidance on how to use both to terrify your players most effectively
• New monsters?
• New subclasses? (Honestly not my favorite)
• Links to a playlist of thematic music
• General guidance on how to design and run dungeons
  • Issues of realism (why are the monsters here? what do they eat? etc.) and whether your players will actually care

Rules for mapping, etc referred to above (otherwise exploration) could serve a number of purposes, it abstracts a larger dungeon into a series of discrete smaller location and allows the group to determine the state of the party (in terms of available resources) when they arrive at a location of interest. As such a way to replace some stuff that is currently done with keyed maps and as a way to bring navigational difficulties into VTT play where the players can see the map of where they have passed through.
Traps, puzzles, secret door and random encounters are (primarily) sources of attrition (whether of time, spells/powers or inventory) appropriate usage varies with playstyle (Some people hate puzzles).

 

[Zaukrie]

There are so many books out there with this content..... They should read and steal from those.

I'd like more fantastic stuff, and less realism. Random stuff like walls that suck light, or mysterious glowing rocks. Mushrooms that give off oxygen. Give us long time players something we haven't seen 100 tinted.

 

[jmartkdr2]

All of those things are in Level Up's Dungeon Delver's Guide.

Do they work with 5e's standard rules?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do they work with 5e's standard rules?

Yes, with the caveat that Level Up has added rules for exploration, and changed some spells and effects to better suit those rules. The base rules of 5e still apply.

 

[Clint_L]

I would do it as a Guide to the Underdark, setting neutral so it could be added to lots of different game worlds+home brew, so that we would get both an environment to adventure in and lots of ideas and supplementary material relevant to a dungeon-centred campaign. I also think that would be a lot more popular than something sold expressly as a book about dungeons, which would probably be seen as a niche supplement.

 

[Undrave]

That would be awesome! I may work that up in Level Up as an option for the Constructed heritage.

Hidden poison dart trap in the left elbow

A Living Golem made of pieces of a Dungeon, or life given to a statue meant to protect a dungeon...

 

[Reynard]

I like spelunking simulation. Makes things feel more real.

And I hope you find the dungeon for you.

But for me, dungeons, while awesome, are already on the edge of absurd and so when presented with the choice of either going through toil and trouble to try and get them to feel something like "realistic", versus leaning into their strangeness,I will take the latter.

 

[FallenRX]

Threads like this are going around when this sites owner literally made one of the best Dungeon books for DnD not even a month ago, like come on dawg.

It is backwards compatible with 5e too

 

[Micah Sweet]

And I hope you find the dungeon for you.

But for me, dungeons, while awesome, are already on the edge of absurd and so when presented with the choice of either going through toil and trouble to try and get them to feel something like "realistic", versus leaning into their strangeness,I will take the latter.

Fair enough. Different strokes.

 

[ehren37]

I like spelunking simulation. Makes things feel more real.

Except they don't take the ubiquity of D&D's magic into account. I'm not even talking spells (but also that), but also magical/supernatural flora, fauna and phenomena. Write it for a non-dirt farmer world, rather than pointless minutia about how much rope frays against various surfaces.

 

[ehren37]

I'll throw my vote for more usable traps. To me, a trap is only interesting if it's sprung, and the effects aren't resolved instantly. Hallway dart traps may as well just be the DM randomly ticking off your hit points so we can get to the fun stuff. Not Grimtooth's crap either, which is basically petty tyrant of the 5th grade lunch table nonsense that punishes players for doing anything sensible or daring to interact with the world. Include specific hints gained from both player and character skill. I'm not a trap expert and neither are most DM's, so the likelihood of a DM and player both being knowledgeable about the subject to convey useful info and act on it are low.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except they don't take the ubiquity of D&D's magic into account. I'm not even talking spells (but also that), but also magical/supernatural flora, fauna and phenomena. Write it for a non-dirt farmer world, rather than pointless minutia about how much rope frays against various surfaces.

Well, then let's add that in. Again, the Dungeon Delver's Guide covers this stuff extremely well.

 

[Bedrockgames]

A section using Jennell Jaquays designs as models for making dungeons.

A new Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb guide might be a cool approach. They could just hire Jennell Jaquays to write the DMG, provided she is available. I think the name recognition alone, plus the fact that people from a wide variety of styles have been influenced by her.

 

[Reynard]

This thread really got the gears turning, and since I have some time and no freelance writing on deck...

It's gonna get weird. Stay tuned.

 

[Fifinjir]

Guidelines on tailoring dungeons to their role in the campaign. Is the campaign in a single dungeon? Does it frequently switch between overworld and dungeons? Or is dungeon delving meant for the climaxes of campaign arcs? All of these have different considerations and will need different design to make them shine.

 

[Lanefan]

Ideas? (And this is a '+' thread because if you want to pooh-pooh the idea of 'bringing back dungeons' the other thread is a fine place for such cynicism.)

My off-the-top-of-my-head ideas:

• A system for keeping track of time, with rules and suggestions for how to use that to add pressure
• Other ideas for keeping the tension and pressure up (without counting torches)
  • E.g. Rests: ways to make rests something players are less eager to take (ties into the time thing)
• Rules for mapping, backtracking, and getting lost (i.e., if you want to map carefully, it consumes more time!)
• Traps!
  • I really don't like WotC's take on traps; I would want @iserith...or The Angry DM...to write this chapter
  • I imagine this chapter containing both guidance on how to design and DM traps that aren't just empty dice rolls, and also a whole trove of fleshed out traps based on that guidance
• Puzzles! (Similar to traps)
  • This wouldn't necessarily have to be the sorts of puzzles designed by evil geniuses (who apparently have phobias about good old fashioned keys); it could just refer to anything the party has to figure out. "There's a rope bridge spanning the chasm, but the ropes look rotted and most of the planks are missing..."
• Secret Doors! (Similar to traps)
• Random tables for fleshing out dungeons.
  • Not (necessarily) to generate a whole dungeon, but for when you are just filling in details or looking for inspiration)
• A whole chapter on light and darkness, full of juicy guidance on how to use both to terrify your players most effectively
• New monsters?
• New subclasses? (Honestly not my favorite)
• Links to a playlist of thematic music
• General guidance on how to design and run dungeons
  • Issues of realism (why are the monsters here? what do they eat? etc.) and whether your players will actually care

This is a brilliant list!

My only quibble with it would be the bit I bolded, in that resource management would need at least a mention if not a deeper dive. Food and water in particular, along with consumable light sources.

Things I'd add to the list:
--- in the light-and-darkness piece, a section on night vision and its effectiveness (or lack thereof)
--- a brief primer on different types of light sources and their effectiveness (torches, lanterns, various light-emitting spells, etc.)
--- a reminder that dungeons can be 3D environments; a section on verticality and how to incorporate/use it effectively
--- in the "how to design" piece, a note that any constructed dungeon was originally built for a purpose, even if that purpose has long since become irrelevant, and that the design should reflect that original purpose
--- a section specifically devoted to "natural" dungeons or cavern complexes (as opposed to the constructed ones with nice neat 10'-wide hallways), including what might grow/live there, natural hazards e.g. trapped gases, etc.

 

[Clint_L]

I actually try to take the "crawl" out of dungeon crawl by making sure to add a ticking clock to these types of environments. For me, the dungeon is not a place where you routinely go camping; you only go into it for compelling reasons, and it should be a race against steadily dwindling resources (not torches, but hit points and spells). A short rest feels like a difficult decision, and a long rest out of the question in most of my dungeon adventures. And often the point is not to defeat a Big Bad but to avert some catastrophe and escape intact.

So I guess my immediate recommendation is, as the DM, to make sure that your story has real stakes multiplied by an impending sense of disaster. Real stakes where if the party is too late, they are too late and there are consequences. The dungeon is the one place where I design with that 6-8 encounters/adventuring day in mind.

Note: This would not apply to a dungeon that is in effect a wilderness a world unto itself, like the Underdark.

 

[Bill Zebub]

This is a brilliant list!

My only quibble with it would be the bit I bolded, in that resource management would need at least a mention if not a deeper dive. Food and water in particular, along with consumable light sources.

Yeah I should have written "not necessarily counting torches". I know management of supplies is considered, by some, a necessary component of true dungeon delving, and it may be necessary to full replicate the original D&D experience, but I don't think it's necessary to provide tension and suspense.

@Manbearcat said, I think in the other thread, that "load out" was a requisite or important component. I get the sentiment, but I don't think the level of granularity that requires specifying how many iron spikes and how much chalk dust and a million other things is needed. I kind of like the system in Five Torches Deep, in which you specify how many "load" units of various categories you are bringing, without having to specify each individual item.

I've toyed around with designing some rules where you just specify what weight/encumbrance of additional supplies you are bringing, and the higher the number the higher the probability that you have any one particular item, that also factors in how rare/unusual the item is (as determined by the DM). You are more likely to have a bit of rope than you are to have a sausage grinder, but the guy who brought 50 pounds of supplies is twice as likely to have either as the guy who brought 25 pounds of supplies.

Things I'd add to the list:
--- in the light-and-darkness piece, a section on night vision and its effectiveness (or lack thereof)
--- a brief primer on different types of light sources and their effectiveness (torches, lanterns, various light-emitting spells, etc.)
--- a reminder that dungeons can be 3D environments; a section on verticality and how to incorporate/use it effectively
--- in the "how to design" piece, a note that any constructed dungeon was originally built for a purpose, even if that purpose has long since become irrelevant, and that the design should reflect that original purpose

Maybe with a whole list of ideas about dungeons that were built for purpose A but is now being used for purpose B, and how some features might have been repurposed.

--- a section specifically devoted to "natural" dungeons or cavern complexes (as opposed to the constructed ones with nice neat 10'-wide hallways), including what might grow/live there, natural hazards e.g. trapped gases, etc.

Yes. Maybe in addition to Traps, Puzzles, and Secret Doors there's a section on Hazards. Really I'd be thrilled with just an encyclopedia of those things (one volume per category!)

 

[Bill Zebub]

I actually try to take the "crawl" out of dungeon crawl by making sure to add a ticking clock to these types of environments. For me, the dungeon is not a place where you routinely go camping; you only go into it for compelling reasons, and it should be a race against steadily dwindling resources (not torches, but hit points and spells). A short rest feels like a difficult decision, and a long rest out of the question in most of my dungeon adventures. And often the point is not to defeat a Big Bad but to avert some catastrophe and escape intact.

So I guess my immediate recommendation is, as the DM, to make sure that your story has real stakes multiplied by an impending sense of disaster. Real stakes where if the party is too late, they are too late and there are consequences. The dungeon is the one place where I design with that 6-8 encounters/adventuring day in mind.

Note: This would not apply to a dungeon that is in effect a wilderness a world unto itself, like the Underdark.

Yes. As I suggested up thread, a ticking clock can add tension similar to...but maybe even better than...torch counting.

 

[jgsugden]

Chapter 1: What are Dungeons?
Chapter 2: How to weave a dungeon into a good storyline.
Chapter 3: Dungeons that make sense - how to make your dungeon seem realistic instead of just a series of random rooms.
Chapter 4: Traps and Features - Ideas on ways to make different areas of a dungeon interesting
Chapter 5: Dungeon Access - How to allow PCs to access the deeper parts of the dungeon without walking through it over and over and over and over ...
Chapter 6: Dungeon Ecology - How to populate your dungeon in a way that explains how creatures survive there.
Chapter 7: Dungeroneering Spells and Magic Items
Chapter 8: Henchmen - hiring NPCs to support your dungeon exploration
Chapter 9: Sample dungeon - An abandoned Dwarven Settlement with surface and subterranean areas. The PCs will find gates to the Feywild, the Shadowfell (a Raveloft domain) and the Ethereal Plane - all of which feature alternative versions of the location that need to be explored to solve the mystery of the place. The Shadowfell Ravenloft Domain constantly relives the fall of the Settlement providing historical clues, the Feywild features beings that have taken much of the older artifacts of the place, and the Ethereal houses many threats that are trying to make their way back to the Prime Material Plane again - all overlapping the original monster filled dungeon.