What should legendary characters be able to do?

[d20Dwarf]

I chose not to use the word "epic" in the title so as not to confuse "epic levels" of D&D with what I'm talking about. Because really, the Epic Level Handbook seems to have been designed from "how do we extrapolate 1-20 to higher levels" rather than the query that starts this thread.

I haven't seen a ruleset out there that tackles the question from the perspective of the legendary character, which is, in the end, the only question that matters to the player of such a character. "I can swim up a waterfall and tumble over clouds" isn't a real satisfying answer in my opinion...as I said, these are merely extrapolations.

I tried to address this question in the Dawnforge mechanics, but was constrained by the need to present the answer within the 1-20 paradigm and to appeal to the balance wonks and system nuts (I count myself among this number, but not exclusively). I think it's a fair job.

But what would I do if I was creating a truly legendary OGL system for characters like Conan, Elric, and Druss? I may very well find out soon, or we might just get an interesting thread out of it. So again, I pose the central question:

What should legendary characters be able to do?

And a secondary question, if you feel inclined to answer:

What should legendary characters do? What adventures can they undertake? (Living in a city where everyone is high level and slaying advanced dragons and 3,000 hp beetles is an extrapolation...let's avoid those. ).

 

[Immak Antunel]

Just to get the ball rolling, I'll say that I think that "legendary" characters should, primarily, be able to shape history and culture in their worlds for millenia to come. I'm not particularly familiar with the literary examples given (though I realize I should be), but mythology seems to be kinda what you're aiming for. Legendary characters steal the secret of fire from the gods, for example, or slay the midgard serpent at the end of time. Their stories should be passed down throuh the generations. I suppose this is too vague to really help...

I suppose I want to say that, unless opposed by an appropriately powerful foe, a legendary character should be able to do anything. If it weren't for Achilles, Hektor would have been able to hold back the Greek armies all by himself. Ajax was simply indestructible... he may not have been able to defeat everyone, but no mortal could defeat him either. Beowulf, a fighter by any standard DnD reasoning, defeated a nigh invulnerable opponent by ripping its arm off, with his bare hands, an impressive display of unarmed combat prowess.

I suppose that the issue here, mechanically, is levelling. It would kinda ruin the magic of the Gilgamesh epic if it described how he started his career brawling with two-bit thugs in back alleys, and worked his way up to the city guard, and then became king, and then fought Enkidu. Instead, he's just the king, and its within his duty and his capability to wrestle the divine monster from the forest. However, Conan at least, and probably others, have a very obvious levelling progression in the stories, so I might be coming at all this from the wrong angle.

Five bucks says that at least one much more insightful reply has been posted in the time its taken me to write this.

EDIT: wow, guess I owe myself five bucks.

 

[Orryn Emrys]

In my last major campaign, the PCs ended their "careers" amidst great deeds that are still remembered in the current campaign, a thousand years later. Naturally, I planned it that way, since the players really get a kick out of it, but they did do amazing things... fought powerful enemies who threatened the world as a whole, led mighty armies in battle, furthered the greater cause of their deities by spreading their worship across the continent, retrieved incredibly powerful artifacts from the jaws of evil, etcetera.... Of course, now that the current PCs are getting up to around 12th level, about half of what the former PCs were when we ended the campaign, they're already starting to do near-legendary things.... Go figure.

 

[Delemental]

A legendary character...

...is no longer a pawn in the machinations of the gods. They are the knights, the rooks, the queens... and perhaps, if their legend is great enough, they aren't on the game board at all, but decide how the other pieces are moved.

...transcends boundaries, be they social, political, or even metaphysical. They no longer think locally, nationally, or even globally; they intervene on a cosmological scale.

...are not called upon to deal with the immediate threat, or even the threat behind the immediate threat. They are called upon to deal with the millenia-old plots of unknowable beings, who set into motion the plans of the beings behind the instigators of the threat behind the immediate threat.

...see beings such as balors, solars, pit fiends and the like not as obstacles to be overcome, but as beings who are simply advancing their cause... and who are the footsoldiers of the powers behind that cause. If their legend becomes great enough, then they extend this understanding to demon princes, archdevils, abominations...

...stops wars with their presence, ignites a revolt with a glance, ends a plague with a quiet word - all without rolling a single d20.


This doesn't really give any concrete ideas, but in my mind such ideas are difficult to pin down. I see legendary characters not really using the d20 mechanics much, to be honest. Sure, an epic-level monk can punch through a mountain, but a legendary monk doesn't deal with situations where this capability is usually necessary or even appropriate.

Regular D&D is like checkers; you move forward, jump over the enemy pieces, and get rewarded with your crown if you get to the end, which allows you to go jump over even more pieces. Legendary D&D is like chess between two masters; the ultimate goal is the same, but obtaining that goal requires long-term strategy, occasional sacrifice, and long periods where it seems like nothing is happening at all.

 

[Crothian]

has a Legendary prestige class?

 

[Shemeska]

I haven't seen a ruleset out there that tackles the question from the perspective of the legendary character

The very act of giving something shrouded in myth and legend a set of stats, finely delineating their abilities within a ruleset, tacking down everything they can do and defining it, that's the root of the problem. The cover is lifted and the mystery is revealed, the legend is gone, its really not a monster it's old farmer brown, and no longer is the legendary any bit legendary at all, it's just a dry collection of crunch devoid of worth and mystique.

Though this applies more to NPCs than PCs. The Player of joe legendary PC knows what is there under the curtain that all the level 1 commoners are in awe over, so for him there's little problem with giving him abilities because they were never shrouded in mystery for him to begin with.

But the problem many seem to have is that the PC can do anything, ever, and the universe not only should but does revolve around them and only them, and the rules should support this. In this design philosophy the gods are waiting in divine dungeons to kill, archfiends are twiddling their thumbs in the lower planes, and the PCs are the only ones now or ever to do such things. It's my feeling that once you attempt to quantify that which can't be quantified, the game loses something.

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that after a certain point the PC needs to gain that mystique, stop trying to quantify everything into abilities, hit dice and levels to be gained and feats to be taken. At a certain point a strict ruleset cannot handle these things without becoming nearly self parodic in its treatment of those topics. And then you get Waldorf with his enslaved Greyhawk pantheon as an example.

 

[WayneLigon]

But what would I do if I was creating a truly legendary OGL system for characters like Conan, Elric, and Druss?

I guess the first questions I'd ask would be 'What legendary characters am I trying to model?' If those are examples, I'd say they'd fit handily into the 1-20 system we have now, with some variant magic system to handle Elric. I would not see the need for a seperate system to handle what they could do. If you're talking about the demi-god-like status many national heroes tend to grow into (Paul Bunyon digging the Grand Canyon by letting his axe drag behind him, or Pecos Bill lassoing a whirlwind), then I dunno.

 

[DragonLancer]

I tried to address this question in the Dawnforge mechanics, but was constrained by the need to present the answer within the 1-20 paradigm and to appeal to the balance wonks and system nuts (I count myself among this number, but not exclusively). I think it's a fair job.

I picked up Dawnforge a couple weeks ago and while its probably not what you are looking for, Dawnforge was perfect for how I would envision legendary under the D20 system.

If what you are seeking isn't fitting with the D20 system, then perhaps it would be better to work out what you do want Legendary to mean and then find a system that can handle that.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

has a Legendary prestige class?

Template, you mean.

Legendary is deeds, not game mechanics. The character who saved the captured farmers from the horde of rampaging goblins, single-handed while wounded, can be legendary -- even if he's only a 1st level fighter.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Tell the gods to go stick it, and have them need to resort to just messing with him indirectly, because going up against him or her face-to-face would be too much trouble.