ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
d20Dwarf said:
What do you mean by this? Isn't this more a matter of how one plays the game, rather than the game itself?
What should legendary characters be able to do?
- Thread starter d20Dwarf
- Start date
What do you mean by this? Isn't this more a matter of how one plays the game, rather than the game itself?
Bagpuss
Legend
d20Dwarf said:
Just want normal characters, but in a culture that has oral tradition and people to tell stories about them that get exaggerated over time.
In the Birthright campaign I ran once each session started with a recap of the last adventure told from the view of either a history book written 300 years after the events or a Storyteller in the local tavern, centuries after their time.
All the characters actions which were normal for middle level D&D at the time were described with a heroic and legendary spin on them. The fighter was described as a "Man-mountain" cleaving through his enemies (well before Great Cleave was even possible, this was 2nd edition), the wizard was often discribed as the "Archmage" using spells far beyond his current level, etc.
It certainly made the character feel heroic and legendary that people would still be speaking about them hundreds of years after the event.
Shucks...
...You might try asking the players...
Ask them things like "If you had the power of a Demigod, what would your Domains be?" The answers might surprise you. You could then begin by forming a Clerical Domain to fit theirs, and/or giving them the spells of their Domains as free, usable at will. They will also need immunities to various things that shouldn't bother legendary ones.
Depending upon what TYPE of legendary you want, you could give them Denigodhood, agelessness, eternal youth, immortality, immunity to non-magical weapons, etc. Or, you could just make them normal folks with some extra at-will, unlimited-use magical powers, according to their Domains.
As an example of the latter, a Ranger decides that his Domains will be Ranging, Healing, Shadow, Survival, and Infiltration & Spying... Healing is easy, as it already exists. Ranging is similar to Travel, with some additions for adapting to the new environments. Shadow would be easy enough to craft, as there are lots of Shadow spells in the PHB. Survival might take a little more work, but is easily doable, too. Same for Infiltration & Spying.
So, the PC now has a bunch of abilities that can be used at-will, and make him more powerful, and hopefully more heroic. He can do a lot of things no lesser Ranger can do... He can travel at will, probably summoning Nihrain steeds (or at least Mounts and Smoke-steeds), Heal all manner of ills, hear anything said about him when the speaker is in shadow, Survive anywhere, and get into anyplace and find information... along with all of his other, previous abilities. His lejendary companions can do likewise (in their own Domains, of course).
Weaknesses can be linked to some of these powers... Shadow not working in total darkness nor bright light, for instance. Some have built-in weaknesses, fire not working in water, for instance.
Ask the players what they want the PCs to be able to do, then try to find a way to make it work for them.
Making all previou uses/day abilities now with unlimited uses is another option. Spellcasters can all become spontaneous, or not, as fits the level of game you want.
Each PC should have an artifact (or a few) that is part of their mystique. It can be a weapon, armor, symbol, whatever. Strong, weak, whatever; but it should add to their legend. Ask the players what their PCs would want. Spend some adventures learning how to make them. Then do.
You can leave the PCs as killable Humans (or whatever) with extra magic, or add more power as they advance... Look at the lists of powers based upon divine rank, for more ideas. Instead of asking us what the PCs should be able to do, try asking them! Whatever they say, look for ways to make it work...
Also, throw in some abilities that add to or extend the powers the PCs already have... While a Druid's Wild Empathy pretty much charms any animal that they meet by Epic levels, anyway, making it so that no plant, animal, nor elemental creature will ever attack them might be neat. Allowing Speak With Animals and Speak With Plants, at will, and the elemental tongues would be another way.
Lift restrictions. Speed things up. If a PC ordinarily has to spend half a day building a shelter or looking for food, let the legends do it while travelling, or in half the time, or whatever. I'd give all legendary PCs proficiency with all weapons and armor, regardless of class. YMMV.
...You might try asking the players...
Ask them things like "If you had the power of a Demigod, what would your Domains be?" The answers might surprise you. You could then begin by forming a Clerical Domain to fit theirs, and/or giving them the spells of their Domains as free, usable at will. They will also need immunities to various things that shouldn't bother legendary ones.
Depending upon what TYPE of legendary you want, you could give them Denigodhood, agelessness, eternal youth, immortality, immunity to non-magical weapons, etc. Or, you could just make them normal folks with some extra at-will, unlimited-use magical powers, according to their Domains.
As an example of the latter, a Ranger decides that his Domains will be Ranging, Healing, Shadow, Survival, and Infiltration & Spying... Healing is easy, as it already exists. Ranging is similar to Travel, with some additions for adapting to the new environments. Shadow would be easy enough to craft, as there are lots of Shadow spells in the PHB. Survival might take a little more work, but is easily doable, too. Same for Infiltration & Spying.
So, the PC now has a bunch of abilities that can be used at-will, and make him more powerful, and hopefully more heroic. He can do a lot of things no lesser Ranger can do... He can travel at will, probably summoning Nihrain steeds (or at least Mounts and Smoke-steeds), Heal all manner of ills, hear anything said about him when the speaker is in shadow, Survive anywhere, and get into anyplace and find information... along with all of his other, previous abilities. His lejendary companions can do likewise (in their own Domains, of course).
Weaknesses can be linked to some of these powers... Shadow not working in total darkness nor bright light, for instance. Some have built-in weaknesses, fire not working in water, for instance.
Ask the players what they want the PCs to be able to do, then try to find a way to make it work for them.
Making all previou uses/day abilities now with unlimited uses is another option. Spellcasters can all become spontaneous, or not, as fits the level of game you want.
Each PC should have an artifact (or a few) that is part of their mystique. It can be a weapon, armor, symbol, whatever. Strong, weak, whatever; but it should add to their legend. Ask the players what their PCs would want. Spend some adventures learning how to make them. Then do.
You can leave the PCs as killable Humans (or whatever) with extra magic, or add more power as they advance... Look at the lists of powers based upon divine rank, for more ideas. Instead of asking us what the PCs should be able to do, try asking them! Whatever they say, look for ways to make it work...
Also, throw in some abilities that add to or extend the powers the PCs already have... While a Druid's Wild Empathy pretty much charms any animal that they meet by Epic levels, anyway, making it so that no plant, animal, nor elemental creature will ever attack them might be neat. Allowing Speak With Animals and Speak With Plants, at will, and the elemental tongues would be another way.
Lift restrictions. Speed things up. If a PC ordinarily has to spend half a day building a shelter or looking for food, let the legends do it while travelling, or in half the time, or whatever. I'd give all legendary PCs proficiency with all weapons and armor, regardless of class. YMMV.
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Kerrick
First Post
We use the term "legendary" in place of epic. Epic, to us, means something grand and sweeping, like an epic story arc. Legendary, now... that's more in line with what d20 Dwarf is thinking.
Shtar is a high-magic, high-power world - there are lots of legendary figures running around, but they're not like Elminster, sitting on their butts while the PCs deal with the world's problems. No, they're right in the mix, duking it out with each other (and sometimes the PCs, directly or indirectly). The gods themselves commonly send avatars to walk among their worshipppers (a god's power is directly related to the number, power, and faith of his worshippers). Anyone who kills a god (or his avatar) can take that god's portfolio.
So, then, what is legenary for us? Figures like Fallstaff the Magus, IV, Gor DuMay, Ralts Bloodthorne... these are the legendary figures that tread the lands of Shtar. They have been around (and in some cases, alive) for thousands of years. They have led armies, started and finished wars (in IV's case, she rose from the ocean after being missing and thought dead for a thousand years or so, declared herself in a voice heard 'round the world, and stopped two major wars). These are some of the most feared and powerful beings on the planet, people who haven taken on the Lich Kings, ultrapowerful undead who ruled all of Shtar for several thousand years, and won. People who have carved their names in history, in blood and fire, for better or worse. People who have killed gods and rejected the portfolios.
Now, granted, these are extremely hgh-level characters. What should "normal" legendary characters be able to do, then? Why shouldn't they be able to swim up a waterfall or dance across a cloud? Don't normal people consider those abilities beyond the normal ken? What about flying to the moon, or lassoing a whirlwind, taming an elder dragon, establishing your own kingdom, starting an order of monks/wizards/warriors/whatever, creating/destroying artifacts... the list of things possible at his level of power is limited only by the DM's and the players' imaginations.
Shtar is a high-magic, high-power world - there are lots of legendary figures running around, but they're not like Elminster, sitting on their butts while the PCs deal with the world's problems. No, they're right in the mix, duking it out with each other (and sometimes the PCs, directly or indirectly). The gods themselves commonly send avatars to walk among their worshipppers (a god's power is directly related to the number, power, and faith of his worshippers). Anyone who kills a god (or his avatar) can take that god's portfolio.
So, then, what is legenary for us? Figures like Fallstaff the Magus, IV, Gor DuMay, Ralts Bloodthorne... these are the legendary figures that tread the lands of Shtar. They have been around (and in some cases, alive) for thousands of years. They have led armies, started and finished wars (in IV's case, she rose from the ocean after being missing and thought dead for a thousand years or so, declared herself in a voice heard 'round the world, and stopped two major wars). These are some of the most feared and powerful beings on the planet, people who haven taken on the Lich Kings, ultrapowerful undead who ruled all of Shtar for several thousand years, and won. People who have carved their names in history, in blood and fire, for better or worse. People who have killed gods and rejected the portfolios.
Now, granted, these are extremely hgh-level characters. What should "normal" legendary characters be able to do, then? Why shouldn't they be able to swim up a waterfall or dance across a cloud? Don't normal people consider those abilities beyond the normal ken? What about flying to the moon, or lassoing a whirlwind, taming an elder dragon, establishing your own kingdom, starting an order of monks/wizards/warriors/whatever, creating/destroying artifacts... the list of things possible at his level of power is limited only by the DM's and the players' imaginations.
GuardianLurker
Adventurer
I'm sensing two camps here - one that's about increasing power, and another that's more about legendary stories. I personally believe it's more about the latter than the former.
A perfect example from fiction is Skeeve. In D&D terms Skeeve is relatively low-level (5-7) when he stops an invading army that has a continuous front days-long from crushing his country. Legendary deed, but not by a character with a great deal of power.
Actually, I'm not sure there's really a need for "legendary" rules - that's what I've always assumed the PCs to be. In past campaigns, characters have been responsible for ridding the world of all undead (at least temporarily), completely changing the way magic worked, and ascending to near-divinity. In my present campaign, the characters squashed an effort to summon an unbound demon-lord to the Prime, stopped an evil archmage from seizing the source of all magic, and are currently beginning their adventures among the stars.
Legendary has to do with scope, and the stories/adventures the PCs are on. What are those stories like? How do they differ from the dungeon-crawl? Is there a difference between pre-20 and post-20? It all has to do with scope. Not power - scope.
In the campaign I'm starting now, the players' opponents will almost all be much less powerful individually than the PCs themselves. But the scope will be much larger - not just a single continent/world, but a large portion of the galaxy will be affected by the players actions. And yet, I'll be using many of the same plot elements I'd have used at a lower level to tell a similar story.
A perfect example from fiction is Skeeve. In D&D terms Skeeve is relatively low-level (5-7) when he stops an invading army that has a continuous front days-long from crushing his country. Legendary deed, but not by a character with a great deal of power.
Actually, I'm not sure there's really a need for "legendary" rules - that's what I've always assumed the PCs to be. In past campaigns, characters have been responsible for ridding the world of all undead (at least temporarily), completely changing the way magic worked, and ascending to near-divinity. In my present campaign, the characters squashed an effort to summon an unbound demon-lord to the Prime, stopped an evil archmage from seizing the source of all magic, and are currently beginning their adventures among the stars.
Legendary has to do with scope, and the stories/adventures the PCs are on. What are those stories like? How do they differ from the dungeon-crawl? Is there a difference between pre-20 and post-20? It all has to do with scope. Not power - scope.
In the campaign I'm starting now, the players' opponents will almost all be much less powerful individually than the PCs themselves. But the scope will be much larger - not just a single continent/world, but a large portion of the galaxy will be affected by the players actions. And yet, I'll be using many of the same plot elements I'd have used at a lower level to tell a similar story.
JohnSnow
Hero
d20Dwarf said:
Cool topic idea Wil. Here's a few of my thoughts.
There's a tendency to think that Legendary characters need to be able to "accomplish the impossible." I disagree, Legendary characters, at their core, are about something larger than themselves - usually some ideal worthy of great deeds. I'll give a couple examples by way of illustrating my point. I imagine most people will know these references since most gamers are geeks...
In Marvel Comics, Captain America is frequently referred to as "a living legend." Other heroes, many of them far more powerful (Iron Man, Thor, the Submariner), are intimidated by Cap's strength of character, his will, and his personality. Captain America is the "living embodiment of the American Dream," and he's at once the most human of heroes and the most superheroic. Those character traits make him a legend.
Conan is similar. It's worth noting that Howard didn't write the Conan stories starting from his earliest days and moving on to his later ones. In fact, the first Conan story ever written was The Phoenix on the Sword, featuring Conan, King of Aquilonia. When we first meet him, Conan is already a legendary character - an enlightened warrior-king in the mold of Arthur or Charlemagne. There's also a fairly strong undercurrent in the Howard stories that Conan is a Cimmerian - quite possibly the LAST Cimmerian. And as such, Conan possesses a kind of nobility that is all but lost in the decadent civilization of his world. So again, he embodies an ideal.
Most legends are like that. They defend ideals - and whatever happens to them, they are remembered for the struggle. King Arthur and Robin Hood are great "legendary" characters. So are Charlemagne and his knights - as they appear in the stories. Achilles was the perfect greek warrior - Odysseus is renowned for his craftiness. So what makes a legend?
1. Determination/Strength of Character - Legends NEVER give up - they fight when it's hopeless, and even when they lose, they win. It's worth mentioning that unflagging endurance is a frequent characteristic ascribed to legendary characters (Captain America, Conan, John Henry). Tolkien even builds it into The Lord of the Rings with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli's pursuit of the orcs.
2. Motive - Legends are heroes fighting for a cause or defending/embodying an ideal (Pecos Bill, Paul Bunyan, the Knights of the Round Table, etc.). They may be flawed, but their failings are forgiven because of the virtue of their cause.
3. Intrinsic Strength - Legends do have this tendency to triumph over overwhelming odds - usually by virtue of their own amazing abilities. Sure, sometimes they have "magic" weapons, but most of their abilities come from within - not from without.
4. Understandable - True legends have abilities that are comprehensible to everyone. They may be "the best" but their abilities tend to be rather straight-forward. Despite this, they always seem to be "enough."
I'd argue that in d20 terms, characters start becoming "Legendary" when they hit what used to be called "name level" - or about 9th level. Up until that point, your abilities are mostly about being "a little better" than others. Past that point, you start being able to accomplish truly amazing things.
For the record, my current preferred OGL game for this kind of play is Iron Heroes. While you don't HAVE to play a legendary game, it tends to come more naturally (IMO), because it emphasizes/encourages the following:
1. The character's innate abilities over his gear.
2. Heroic feats - which start to become truly spectacular around 10th-level.
3. Highly competent heroes.
4. Cool stunts, rather than simple fights.
5. The importance of the heroes in the setting - they quickly become movers and shakers.
It may not be perfect, but it takes OGL-gaming a long way in the direction of supporting characters that feel "Legendary." At low levels, it supports cinematic action. But if you don't fight it, the transition to "legendary" games should happen around 10th-level, if not before. I'd argue that you could build a legend around 5th-level characters. If you want it to be more concrete, every player could come up with a concept of his character as a "legend." Then he has to go about developing the character so he'll live up to his legend.
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