Level Up (A5E) What should the first Adept/Druid synergy feat give?

[Selganor]

• If your natural weapon attacks have a lower damage die, you may use your martial art die instead.
  • Example: Druid 6/Adept 6 could replace a natural weapon attack doing d4 damage with the d8 damage die.

Wouldn't something like "your wild shape's natural attacks count as adept weapons" do the same?

 

[Tessarael]

Building on the earlier suggestions, here's an updated proposal for the feat:

Force of Nature feat
Prerequisites: Adept level 3+ and Druid level 3+

Practitioners of martial arts, mimicking animals striking with the force of nature, shift form to attack their opponents unawares.

• Natural weapon attacks count as Adept weapons. So:
  • If your natural weapon attack has a lower damage die, use your martial arts die instead.
  • If you use an Attack action to make a natural weapon attack, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.
    • Note: This only works with the Attack action, not with the Multi-Attack action from beast/plant shapes.
• Your Adept and Druid levels stack for Martial Arts die progression.
  • Example: Druid 4/Adept 3 has a d8 martial art die.
• Your Adept and Druid levels stack for Druid wild shape AC progression.
  • Example: Druid 4/Adept 4 has minimum wild shape AC of 14 = 12 + (4+4)/4, plus Wisdom modifier if Skinchanger Druid.
• Exertion can be swapped 2:1 for spell slot levels, once per long rest, for one spell slot up to a maximum of 5th level.
  • Example: Druid 4/Adept 3 has 6 exertion points that can be swapped for a 3rd level spell slot.
• When you use an action or bonus action to change shape (whether to a wild shape, or back to your original form), you can on the same action or bonus action make one unarmed strike with Advantage against your opponent due to your shifting form.

 

[lichmaster]

I’m trying to imagine what it “is”. Do you have some flavour text? Is there a fictional character or archetype you wish to emulate?

Many chinese martial art styles do imitate animals (crane, tiger, monkey, etc), so IMO it's just a fantasy direct transposition.

 

[Morrus]

Many chinese martial art styles do imitate animals (crane, tiger, monkey, etc), so IMO it's just a fantasy direct transposition.

Yeah I was just struggling to imagine a bear doing spinning kicks. But I guess Kung Fu Panda is a thing!

 

[lichmaster]

I have been thinking about a multi-classed Adept/Druid build and what the first synergy feat would be for it.

This reminds me precisely of a 3.5e (Trailblazer, actually) character one of my friends played during our War of the Burning Sky campaign, back in 2012ish.
The idea was to create a monk/druid so to closely simulate someone fighting with animal inspired styles, which often happens in many chinese martial arts.
The concept worked really well with that ruleset: there was a possibility for partial shapeshift, spellcasting while shapeshifted, etc. So one of his favorite moves was to cast produce flame and keep it in his hand while attacking, in order to produce a flurry of flaming fists. Spells like barkskin also worked in perfect synergy etc.
Now, LU is a bit of a different beast, but I really love the concept.
Out of curiosity, have you checked if there's already something similar in the various multiclasser's manuals from @Timespike? He has a lot of experience with these multiclass feats, so if it's not there maybe he can give you some good advice

 

[lichmaster]

Yeah I was just struggling to imagine a bear doing spinning kicks. But I guess Kung Fu Panda is a thing!

Exactly! Or also on the human side, imagine something The last Airbender, so you have someone doing martial arts and applying also elemental damage, etc. Or Naruto, too, I remember some character was also shapeshifting

 

[Anonymous3]

Yeah I was just struggling to imagine a bear doing spinning kicks. But I guess Kung Fu Panda is a thing!

This is already possible with Whirlwind Strike on a Skin Druid. Druid transforms into bear then casts the spell - as a bear! Fun interaction.

 

[Tessarael]

Multiclasser's Manual Volume 2 is the one that Lichmaster is referring to I think. No, I haven't checked it out to compare, sorry.

None of the player characters in our A5E campaigns have gotten to the point of a 3+/4+ multi-class split as yet to need it. Most are single-classed, and there's one Wizard 8/Fighter 1. In an earlier 5E campaign, I had a Barbarian 8/Rogue 7, Bloodhunter 12/Rogue 5 after a TPK reincarnation, where multi-classed synergy feats could well have worked, but that was prior to A5E's publication. We have been really enjoying playing A5E, noting that in A5E there's typically significantly less reason to multi-class as single-class progression is more consistent with good higher level class features.

 

[Tessarael]

This is already possible with Whirlwind Kick on a Skin Druid. Druid transforms into bear then casts the spell - as a bear! Fun interaction.

Hmm. I have dismissed of the Whirlwind Kick spell as weak when I looked at it, but let's check the benefits thereof.

Let's say a level 6 Druid wild shaped into a Cave Bear casts Whirlwind Kick. Strength 20 gives +5 damage modifier, and we'll assume a Wisdom of 18 (+4 modifier) so a melee spell attack modifier of +6 with the +2 proficiency modifier added in. However, unarmed strike damage is only 1 + Strength modifier (A5E core rulebook page 309). Hence, you are doing one +6 attack at targets in a 60' line, inflicting 2d6+6 (13) damage if you hit them. And if the targets fail their Dexterity save, they are either pull 10' closer or pushed 10' away, your choice. As the spell is written, I assume it is a single melee spell attack roll, so you run the risk of missing all the targets if you roll low.

The damage of Whirlwind Kick is less than that of Call Lightning, 3d10 (16.5) with Dexterity save for half; significantly worse when we consider that Whirlwind Kick only inflicts damage on the round that you cast it. Call Lightning lasts 10 minutes with concentration, but is only 5' radius on each lightning strike as an action. Situationally, you should be able to line up 2 opponents to Whirlwind Kick them, and may hit a similar number of opponents with Call Lightning. Whirlwind Kick is range self, so in A5E it can be cast in wild shape, and it does have the benefit of battlefield control moving opponents around. Call Lightning also has the limitation of not being usable without a 100' space above you. Edit: Whirlwind Kick is a 15' wide area (not 5' as I had initially assumed), so can hopefully hit 3+ foes.

So in my opinion, Whirlwind Kick as written is a little weak for a 3rd level spell, albeit maybe worth casting in wild shape. I think part of the problem is the typically low unarmed strike damage (i.e., 1 + Strength modifier) that a Druid has. Now that said, it does pair better with an Adept/Druid build, or other builds that have an improved unarmed strike damage die. As such, it would benefit from the martial art die damage scaling with the Force of Nature synergy feat that I am proposing.

I think it would be reasonable to allow a Druid to use their natural weapon attack damage die instead of the unarmed attack die with the Whirlwind Kick spell. For example, a level 6 Druid Skinchanger in CR 2 Plesiosaurus form would do 2d10+2d6+4 (22). That's still significantly less than an 8d6 (28) Lightning Bolt with Dexterity save for half.

Do any DM's permit substitution of natural weapon damage dice instead of unarmed attack die for Whirlwind Kick? Seems like a natural pairing of the spell with wild shape. Plesiosaurus is the highest damage natural weapon attack that I found for a CR 2 beast or plant in my list of good CR 2 wild shapes.

 

[Anonymous3]

I find it difficult to compare these two spells as they offer completely different solutions. One is persistent damage (with restrictions), the other offers movement, battlefield control and some damage. Bear performing hurricane kick in a room seems solid to me.