What should WOTC do about Golden Wyvern Adept? (Keep Friendly)

What should WOTC do about Golden Wyvern Adept and similarly named feats?

  • Remove the fluff and rename them so they work for any campaign (example: Spellshaper Adept)

    Votes: 82 29.0%
  • Move the fluff to optional sidebars and rename the feat so they work for any campaign (as above)

    Votes: 84 29.7%
  • Rename them so they include a descriptive and functional name together (Golden Wyvern Spellshaper)

    Votes: 15 5.3%
  • Do not change them, I like occasional fluff names in my core game mechanics (Golden Wyvern Adept)

    Votes: 66 23.3%
  • I do not care what WOTC does. (Any choice works for you)

    Votes: 36 12.7%

Enkhidu said:
I voted for "remove the fluff names", but am beginning to think that the fluff names don't really matter. The 4e SRD will strip out the names, and I'm likely to use the SRD as a primary resource in the same way as I do the 3.5 SRD (since books aren't as available as the internet in many situations).
This will cripple companies like Green Ronin, Paizo, White Wolf and Goodman Games trying to plug onto the corerule books through the SRD. It is very bad, and might be the reason WOTC is doing it if for some reason they want to get rid of the 3rd party publishers.

Also, how do you SRD name Golden Wyvern Adept? Adept?
 

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A key draw for YOU maybe.
Heh. I think you'll find the stats may actually back me on this one. Didn't the 3E research convey that the most popular setting was "homebrew"? Given the paucity of settings since, I doubt the landscape has changed much (but that's speculation).

I think we had a massive thread earlier this year that suggested that many DM's precious worldbuilding was perhaps the biggest sacred cow of all. People INVEST themselves in this stuff. It's the hobby within the hobby, but we don't talk about it. I wonder if WOTC agrees, or is aware of the possibility that this may be the case?

And "heh" because I'm one of the least likely people to indulge much in worldbuilding; I think it's mostly a waste of time. Still don't want it dictated to me by an intrusive core, though.
 

Hussar said:
Something to remember is they have to look beyond D20. If any game, or novel, or video game or whatever, ANYWHERE has Spellshaper Adept in it, you can't use it because it's someone else's IP.

That is not entirely true. It has to do with how protected the name is, how it its used in context and what market the trademark or copyright is used in and whether the company registered it. Like, Spell Shaper or Spell Shaping Adept couldn't be protected unless it is a pronoun and then it is stopped from being a name of a person, place or thing. It can still be used as a descriptor. This is because it is a combination of common words. Putting Spellshaper together might make it copyrightable. Like Skywalker. That is one of the reasons, George Lucas uses such weird names (aside from the otherworldly feel) with Star Wars. Same thing with characters like Dritzz or Elminster, they are made up words and easier to protect. Words have to be registered as trademarks and brands to be protected. Golden Wyvern Adept could be a registered trademark.
 

rounser said:
Heh. I think you'll find the stats may actually back me on this one. Didn't the 3E research convey that the most popular setting was "homebrew"? Given the paucity of settings since, I doubt the landscape has changed much (but that's speculation).

I think we had a massive thread earlier this year that suggested that many DM's precious worldbuilding was perhaps the biggest sacred cow of all. People INVEST themselves in this stuff. It's the hobby within the hobby, but we don't talk about it. I wonder if WOTC agrees, or is aware of the possibility that this may be the case?

And "heh" because I'm one of the least likely people to indulge much in worldbuilding; I think it's mostly a waste of time. Still don't want it dictated to me by an intrusive core, though.

Yes, they did find that with their research.

This is why the fluff feats are bad for us DMs who enjoy this. It is like being told to use pen when you want to draw in pencil etc. Tomato sauce when you want to use curry. Play guitar when you want to play drums. etc.
 
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Mourn said:
Well, considering they didn't use the 3E core classes (going so far as to simply rename the fighter to "Warrior") for the WoW d20 game, I don't see how this is an issue in the slightest.

I realize that, but I was trying to make a point. Lets say White Wolf was going to make a FRCS style guide for WOW and add it onto the players handbook. Feats like GWA hurt the feel of Azeroth.

Again, my comment taken out of context by someone in the pro-GWA camp trying to make a point. This is the kind of stuff I wish people would stop doing and focus on the main issues at hand. It is frustrating.

No offense to you Mourn, I am not meaning to seem like I am attacking you. Just please don't ignore my intent to try and prove me wrong. It is the whole of my post you took that from that matters and not that small out of context bit.
 

Najo said:
Yes, they did find that with their research.

This is why the fluff feats are bad for us DMs who enjoy this. It is like being told to use pen when you want to draw in pencil etc. Tomato sauce when you want to use curry. Play guitar when you want to play drums. etc.
I completely disagree.

As I stated in my earlier post, there are just as many problems for worldbuilding if you use flavorless names. Also, having flavorful names in the PHB is a great tool for the kind of patchwork worldbuilding that is easiest for new DMs and DMs without a lot of free time. They establish an interesting base that can be altered and molded into a fun campaign setting.

There are many degrees of worldbuilding, and for any kind of worldbuilding which is less extensive than a Dark Sun style complete rebuild, the new magical traditions can add something valuable.
 

rounser said:
Heh. I think you'll find the stats may actually back me on this one. Didn't the 3E research convey that the most popular setting was "homebrew"? Given the paucity of settings since, I doubt the landscape has changed much (but that's speculation).

I think we had a massive thread earlier this year that suggested that many DM's precious worldbuilding was perhaps the biggest sacred cow of all. People INVEST themselves in this stuff. It's the hobby within the hobby, but we don't talk about it. I wonder if WOTC agrees, or is aware of the possibility that this may be the case?

And "heh" because I'm one of the least likely people to indulge much in worldbuilding; I think it's mostly a waste of time. Still don't want it dictated to me by an intrusive core, though.

I question the idea of paucity. There are dozens of published settings out there. The big 2 from WOTC, with a book pretty much every month or so, plus the 3rd party settings. If you move outside of WOTC, there's literally dozens of settings.

Again, I agree that for many DM's world building is a sacred cow. Yup, I remember that thread. But, again, with 150 000 RPGA gamers, this sacred cow may only be sacred to a small number of gamers. Like hardcore gamers who take the time to post on message boards. :)

An intrusive core means you have less worldbuilding to do since it's already done for you.

That is not entirely true. It has to do with how protected the name is, how it its used in context and what market the trademark or copyright is used in and whether the company registered it. Like, Spell Shaper or Spell Shaping Adept couldn't be protected unless it is a pronoun and then it is stopped from being a name of a person, place or thing. It can still be used as a descriptor. This is because it is a combination of common words. Putting Spellshaper together might make it copyrightable. Like Skywalker. That is one of the reasons, George Lucas uses such weird names (aside from the otherworldly feel) with Star Wars. Same thing with characters like Dritzz or Elminster, they are made up words and easier to protect. Words have to be registered as trademarks and brands to be protected. Golden Wyvern Adept could be a registered trademark.

IANAL, so, I don't know how true what you just said is. I do know that WOTC and Hasbro spend more money each year than I make answering this question though.

Considering your own poll shows that most people don't want to change to a flavourless descriptive title, bringing up Spellshaper isn't really the point. I was answering the point that you could make simpler, or more generic flavour titles. You can't. Because they're already taken.

It works from both ends. The simple terms have long been taken and the complex terms can be protected.
 

I would like to add (yet another <rolls eyes at self>) comment:

I am a professional in the industry. My wife and I have visited hundreds of gaming stores, travelled to tons of conventions, paid attention to all of the successes and failures in the industry for the last 20 years. We have a very progressive game store. I interact with every aspect of the gaming industry on daily basis.

Sure, this is not going to kill D&D. But it does step on a specific type of DM that D&D does not want to lose. RPGs are becoming inbreed by groups natural inclination to play amongst friends. This is causing younger and younger players to be locked out and drawn to games like WOW, and fewer and fewer strangers to be brought into groups.

One of the best things good DMs can do is go into a game store or a convention, convince a bunch of non-D&D players to play a session, and then blow those players socks off. So far, this has been an uphill battle. WOTC needs a way to sanction DMs and reward them for finding and creating new players in game stores. That is the solution.

Feats like GWA are an attempt to put cool sounding fluff in front of the new player who picks up D&D for the first time. I get that. Problem is, it also does it at the expense of the DM who D&D can not afford to loose. At the heart, this is what this debate is about.

I am not discussing these matters with people in my store. I do not want to influence buying decisions or cause drama there. That is not the place for it. The point of this poll and these discussions is to find a win/win solution for a problem WOTC might not be aware of or a sacrifice they may think they are willing to make.

When you change a key part of a game, you risk losing its loyal fan base. Hobby games are already niche, they do not pull in mainstream, and cannot lose their core customers. Whenever a successful hobby game has done a 180 on its players, the game has shot itself in the foot.

A few examples:

White Wolf did this with the setting of their world of darkness. Right now the rules are the best they have been, but most customers hate the new setting or more accurately, miss the original setting (and the reason they played the game as WOD is setting driven). Monte Cook speaks about mastery of the game, this occurs in different levels. With WOD it was the familiarity with the Fluff. White Wolf I am sure blames the drop in WOD sales to D&D 3.0 and 3.5, but that is only a small part of the issue. Most fans are frustrated that the good storylines of the original World of Darkness were chucked with the bad ones.

Recently, Rackham did something similiar by alienting their customers. Their customers loved their beautiful miniatures more than any other part of the Confrontation game. When Rackham announced not only they were changing the game's rules, but also dropping the metal minis and going to prepainted plastic ones, they angered their customers and lost a huge market share, now the company is filing the equalivent of a chapter 11 in France.

Games Workshop continues to skate this edge with Warhammer 40,000. The universe is amazing, deep and very original. But, many of the hardcore players I have known over the years are frustrated with the last two rule sets as they do not reflect even psuedo-realistic fire fight tactics. The game has rule issues that occured when they streamlined the system at 3rd edition and those issues are still not addressed. Warhammer 40,000 would have a much larger customer base today if they had corrected this aspect of the game.

Even World of Warcraft (yes I know, 10 million players .. worldwide that is) did this to a lesser extent. It used to be EVERY gamer played. Now only a small percentage do. I know they have gained a huge following, but much of that is over seas. Alot of the first players fell away from frustration with a) not being able to raid to continue to see end game b) losing PVP to instanced battlegrounds c) the lack of the fun, flowing feel the game had in its first year being lost to speedbumps placed. My point, even Warcraft lost customers by going against the feel of a Blizzard game that WOW had at first. They have yet to recapture that or get PVP really working. With Warhammer Online coming, Blizzard may lose 3-4 million subscribers if they can't fix those areas of their game properily.

My point, when you change the heart of the game away from the key reasons your customers play it, you are going to lose customers. You need to make sure you really understand that.

D&D can afford to lose alignment, it can lose vacian spell casting, it can lose hit points and armor class even, as long as it feels like D&D adventuring and the typcial four classes. Part of D&D though, is the ability for it to become the framework for your own worlds if you desire it too. People have put years of hard work into their campaign settings. Removing obstacles for that to occur is good, finding ways to enocourge and support that is even better. Those become long term customers who stick with your product because it still offers them what they love about the game.

We feel D&D is risking losing something very key at its heart. It is going to tell us how to flavor our worlds. It is going to force that on us. This is something the Anti-GWA camp doesn't want.
 

TwinBahamut said:
I completely disagree.

As I stated in my earlier post, there are just as many problems for worldbuilding if you use flavorless names. Also, having flavorful names in the PHB is a great tool for the kind of patchwork worldbuilding that is easiest for new DMs and DMs without a lot of free time. They establish an interesting base that can be altered and molded into a fun campaign setting.

There are many degrees of worldbuilding, and for any kind of worldbuilding which is less extensive than a Dark Sun style complete rebuild, the new magical traditions can add something valuable.

By placing them in a sidebar and removing the feat tied to the order, you make both camps happy. The tools are there for new DMs and players and the DMs and players who do not want it can build around the feat as they wish. What if I want a Wvyern to be worshiped as a god, or what if the golden wyverns are an order of knights in my campaign world already and we have been playing for 10 years. This named feat forces me have to adapt to their throwing some fluff into the core rules, fluff they could have stuck in a sidebar or the flavor text under the feat's name and gotten the very same result. The DMs and players who do not want this are losing much more than the ones who do want this gain.
 


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